2038 Class Feedback: Marksman

This series of threads is intended to provide a place where internal class balance can be discussed. Once class balance becomes a priority the 2038 team will collect all constructive feedback in these threads, investigate it, and act accordingly, always with the intent of fairly adressing the testing phase in which the game was left in TCv4.

The main problem with this class is that it’s currently fails to perform as a glass cannon it meant to be, especially at early game, but it also underperforms at endgame due to the lack of base damage on their weapons. First of all you should drastically increase the damage of all hunter weapons, like a 100% buff to the current values.

Then we can investigate weapon base types:
Shotguns should be like ripshard on evo, granting 25% cc as a base, to make crit based builds work early on, also make for a good close combat option.

Snipers should pierce all targets and shoot around 25%-30% faster.

Laser wapons should have an inherent onhit nova based on weapon damage type.

Modified ammo skills should triggered by all attacks, not just by using the skill itself, so consider making these passive skills please.

Rapid Fire should not cancel Tactical Stance.

Dead Eye, Weapon Master and Surgical Precision should affect strikes and grenades.

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For now, the only thing that doesn’t make sense on the tree is the “Camouflage” skill.
It seems like a cheap trick where you can open fire without retaliation for 3 or 4 seconds. That’s it.
It also shares a cooldown with Escape so unless someone is doing some weird build, you take either one or the other. Escape lets you sit away from your target, shoot 5 or 6 times and then quickly relocate somewhere else (especially with the speed upgrade). Rinse and repeat (or let your tank aggro) and you’ll never take a single hit. But Camouflage achieves none of this. At best, you can camouflage and let your tank buddy re-aggro, but again, Escape does it better since you can actually move with it.

I’d replace it with a passive skill: when you’re sitting still, and using Sniper/Tactical stance you’re invisible. If you fire, you’re visible for a second before going invisble again. This would turn it into a skill you use to manage aggro. If someone disengages from your tank and starts running your way, simply hold fire and they’ll lose sight of you, re-engaging your tank.

Also, I’d need more testing done but the Electric strike seems much weaker when compared to the other ones.

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Pretty versatile, leveling is swiftly.
Did hit a wall, wanting to skill only the bullets between 15-20. Didn’t bring enough damage with automatic rifles to clear bigger mobgroups and aoe weapons lacked the oompf. Went a while with 2 granadelaunchers till they didn’t do the trick either. Was kind of forced to skill a granade and strike to help leveling. Specially the granade did the trick but that means i’ll probably will have to reskill at 50.

There is definitly a phase while leveling where the lack of aoe is a drag. But i missed out on 1 point in rapid fire early on which has proven very handy now that i am 50. It cant be used every encounter or you get ripped to pieces but i use it often enough to justify the point in it and i am regretting not having it skilled earlier on.

I cant say i am totally bought into crit (well i am gearwise) at least not for the Non sniper MM. I have talked with Bryan about it on discord but i find it hard to say unless i am a bit more advanced in gear. I think it works considerably better than other forms of increasing damage when you start getting high multiplicators or even build different caste weapons but i am pretty sure that this is a very late game thing. You need pieces of armor that are very rare and a pain to farm like Sues and Duellos. Getting a +1 Mav is sort of a pain too. It is probably easier to get gear with +damage on than the rare crit items.
The thing is that crit only makes sense if you have very high Crit Damage. Lets say you have a slot in your weapon free and need to decide wether to put 2% crit in or 17% toxic. To achieve the same damage you would need 850% Crit damage. And where this Crit damage is coming from also does matter. From Acc it is natural but from another mod, well that mod could be a damage mod aswell. So things get complicated.
But when you have like 20% Crit and find a 40% multiplicator to demons this mod is worth like 8 crit, with 800 Critdam this would mean 64% damage. Not sure if damage to demon mods can get that high.
All in all i think you might get a tiny bit of plus damage in the end if you minmax towards crit but not much. But i also think you need to concentrate on crit without compromise or will come out worse.

Tried to count up the possible crit figures:
1 inherent
7 from skill
4 from perk
3 duellos
2 sues
2 Maverick
=19
3 from Weapon affix
6 from Modslots for a two handed
=28

There might be some more options through rare stuff like mythic affixes which i leave out here.
So with these figures a crit point is worth 22% dmg given you have 800 Critdam and gets better when you get above. Which is a bit better than what you can get as an ele dam affixes and the same as a divine affix (which Bryan told me is not that good since it doesnt count towards critdam proccs). But a 15% multiplicator gets you 4.2% crit which is more beneficial than any other mod. And a 100% Critdam gets you another 28% damage.
So i think damage vs crit has come closer together with crit turning out better in the very late game.
This might be just what Flagship had in mind. Crit the definitive route for Sniper MM, an absolute endgame route for non sniper MM and pretty much out of the question for most Engis. Correct me if i oversee soemthing.

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I’ve made up for the lack of AoE by using a cluster rifle. Those handle like a shotgun and do splash damage and their projectiles rebound on impact. I’ve added one stun attack strength mod to it, which helps against over-whelming numbers of mobs. Grotesks and their maggots, and zombie summoners, are cleared up quickly with it. Groups of skulls can be controlled rather well with a bit of stun, too. Even Ash seems to be sensitive to stunning.

My current goal with my mm is 2x 4 slot Amir’s filled with shrapnel on hit mods.

Amirs are easier to get than Hu’s, same RoF, accuracy doesn’t matter because you need to be point blank for shrapnels anyway. Ravager rounds for regular hits can make it hit multiple times with one shot, and wonder if rapid fire’s passives will make novas stronger too or just the initial hit, but you also have beacon. Best part on this build is you won’t need any crit to make it effective.
Ofc farming 8 shrapnel mods is very hard, but you won’t need any other expensive item to make this work.

Hi Guys, Hi Omerta
I’d like to give my feed back about the Marksmann in 2038
To begin, you need to know that I’m a huge fan of HGL and allmost play only MM
I really love that toon, love the play style and give me a lot of fun
Must have more than 1000 hours of MM play, largely.
About 2038, 1st of all, I agree that MM don’t DPS enought
You’re supposed to be a glass cannon, low armor and very high DPS, but in fine, in 2038
Not at all : you don’t have armor and you don’t DPS either.
The only way to DPS correctly in 2038 is to use a grenade launcher, BIS is bezyak, with ravager.
If you don’t use that, forget to solo a single boss, and forget about hight density high lvl map
The pb for that is multiple :
Of cource nerf of CCM is a part of the pb, and the lake of cc base is pb too
(CCM 35% max VS 105% - 3% max on weap for leg VS 6% - SuE 2% VS 4% - relique allmost 2% VS 3%)
But I trust there are another pb too : the skill
Firstly, of cource, there is a huge pb with multishot : such a crapy skill in 2038
No accuracy at all, 5 sec long, 30 sec recharge. You just can use that for very close range,
thing that not supposed to happen for a MM, and so completly useless for a boss like moloch
(impossible to manage dmg done by such a boss at very close combat in MM, and even if the boos is huge
the lake of accuracy of MS is still a pb). MS like in vanilla is far more adaptated fo a MM class and far more funny and powerfull
Then there is the pb of becon/multi-becon : completly illogical !
How becon and multi-becon can have the same amount of dmg increase, and the same userate ?!
Once again, the way becon and multi-becon scale in vanilla is far more logical and less absurde.
I trust thoses 2 aspect of MM in 2038 are a must to adress, and I hope you agree with that.
For the rest, I want to give a big big thx to the dev team for all effort made for HGL, a game we all love so much.
Keep going guys, you’re on the good way :smile:

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Can someone explain me how to properly dps with beyzacks. I nanoed one up and checked it out but all i see is a black wall of smoke and mediocre damage.

Some good feedback here. Will add my 2ct, leaving redundancy in for statistical value.

Generally, the skills and gear are fun but the class feels underpowered.
Playing with an evoker buddy, the differences in DPS are really obvious, and seem to relate to base weapon damage, the lack of +crit on gear, the huge cooldown on Multishot and power costs for stuff – hard to even do a sequence like tactical stance -> multi-beacon -> multi-shot.
While I wait for power to recharge or cooldown to end for multishot, the evoker just spawns hellfire, a cloud, and electrocutes everything with that lightning shooting skill. Even with an AOE tree like Rounds skilled way up, a group of low-level mobs requires me to use mutlishot (or skilling for strikes). The mechanics are all there, but underpowered.

Guns behave a little strange – for example a Lee’s at a sheet damage value of 450 consistently outdamages my Nikola’s that has a sheet damage of 650 – something about the electro pulsing just doesn’t seem to work properly. Basically the only guns I find to really have a reasonable impact are Lee’s, Hu’s, to some extent Fraggers (and in Global, Hurricanes and Thors). “Bullets >> anything else”, essentially. It’d be cool to have a wider range of viable options, right now diverging from the vanilla endgame weapons just feels like gimping yourself.

A phase grenade at level 2 (if not skilled for any other grenade synergies) seems to never phase anything on NM/lvl 50 while the Nikola’s does – even though it has a factor of 10 less phase attack strength.

Global had some features that to some extent improved the balancing. For example, The Lazy Envoy set had +crit, while in 2038, the MM Techa set doesn’t (while the evo set does). A “sniper” class (think “precision shooting”…) having less crit than others seems strange to me. This also locks in the possible gearing options and makes gearing really, REALLY tedious. No go without a Maverick with +1 to MM skills, Duelos, Sue etc. Duelos and SuE having such low item levels that they will just NOT drop during “regular” game play lvl50+ -> they’re “unobtainium”.

Hurricanes and the Thor were weapons with a high base damage and good stats (including +crit…) as well as useful skills (BEACON on the Hurricane as opposed to the RAPID FIRE on the Hu’s, for example). Also, more easily farmed as their item level makes much more sense in context of end-game playing.

Multi-Shot getting an increased duration as you level the skill up also made more sense than what we currently do – try to kite while waiting for MS to come off cooldown. I’d bring that mechanic back, and tweak it so that it becomes possible to have 100% uptime if maxing the skill and boosting duration a little with gear. Perhaps have it not only boosted by + Boost Skills Duration.

The Rounds skills were much more useful before their “nerf” – maybe a little too useful, granted. Maybe revisit that and tone down the nerf a little.

Still, very fun class :slight_smile:

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Anyone knows the accuraxy difference between Rapid Fire 1 and 10?

There’s no difference, it isn’t affected by skill level.

Back in the day, the Marksman and the Guardian were considered the only viable classes, believe it or not.

Here’s my primary Marksman build from back in 2007 through the Hellgate: Global days.
It’s optimized for 600rpm rifles and rapid-fire dual-wield grenade launchers and tends to see a steep drop in performance on slower-firing weapons. Keeping accuracy high, fighting from extreme long range and pausing every time the grouping gets bigger than the enemy hitbox in order to maximize DPS is essential. Also, once you have rebounder rounds, don’t be afraid to try shooting into a room and letting your bullets bounce around and flush out any surprises. Ammo is unlimed, after all.

As is realizing that your primary focus should be on exploiting the ever-loving hell out of Escape and Sprint in order to minimize combat as much as possible on street level. Marksman is the Thief of the old F/M/T school. You can always go back an farm quests after you’ve made it to the farthest station you can get to and looted high-level chests along the way.

Lvl# = Skill

1 - 4 = Tactical Stance
5 = Escape
6 - 7 = Rebounder Rounds
8 = Beacon
9 = Escape
10-11 = Dead Eye
12-14 = Escape or Tactical Stance
15-19 = Ravager Rounds (your new left-click forever)
20 = Escape Artist
21-24 = Weapon Master
25-26 = Concussion Rounds (still procs when using Ravager rounds)
27-29 = Weapon Master
30-50 = Ravager Rounds, Tactical Stance, Escape Artist, Escape (as you see fit)

Note - Overshield and elemental vision seem super-great, but there just aren’t enough points to go around