Beta Evoker is... Glass Cannon, minus the Cannon

Hi all,

First let me say I love HG:L 2038 and the work you’ve put into this server and game! It’s amazing and fun and bless you for putting the effort and the time to make HGL great again.

Now for some feedback. I have to say that although I had a lot of fun playing Evoker in Alpha, it seems that the evoker was hit improportionately by the nerf hammer.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the cookie cutter evoker should be somewhat of a glass cannon that can clear out large areas of mobs rather quickly and deal a lot of damage to single target bosses. Evoker gets 1 silly minion that doesnt do tanking very well if at all, Evoker is not so tanky at it’s core, and Evoker’s mobility and defense are a bit limited.

This was mostly true in Alpha, where Ignite used to be a thing and evoker could deal some hefty damage to make up for his drawbacks.

What I hoped would happen is that other classes would be brought on par with how fun it was to play Evoker. What actually happened is that other classes receive some welcome buffs, making them fill their role better (MM became much better at being very offensive, another sort of a glass cannon that currently arguably deal the most DPS in the game (and possibly also in Alpha)t; BMs can deal much better damage upclose and are no longer a laughing stock; guardians actually fill their role as tanks much better too with improved taunts, but I admit they are still lacking, and summoners… OP as ever and enjoying all worlds for whatever reason, except that they might make u crash several times).

However, to me it feels like Beta evoker is very disappointing. It seems that the Evoker’s skills have been nerfed too harshly, along with Status effects. So instead of just bringing other classes on par, you guys hit evokers too harshly with the nerf hammer, to me - in an unnecessary way.

Now, granted I’m talking about end-game content, lvl 57+ monsters and/or Abyss / catacombs. Evokers, even with dedicated gear are performing mediocre at best while their brethren teammates are doing so much better with much less.

Evoker damage feels very laughable atm (in comparison to what they used to be). And ignite has become also a bit laughable right now.
I literally tried to play with 500% crit damage (on each side) with around 50-65% crit chance, and as much extra damage I could stack, only to find out my spells are so under-performing I’m a walking joke in comparison to other classes and the resources I put to improve my evoker.

I also tried to run a 1600 Ignite build (on each focus, not added together; used a talox with 420+ ignite, mortal domains, and many mods) - but honestly, ignite was nerfed so harshly to 2%, and regen mobs are regening so fast sometimes it doesnt even cover some mob’s regen. Additionally, it is very unreliable.

The worst part is that if you wanna have this mediocre damage above, you’re going to have to make compromises on your defensiveness. So you’re left with a glass, without cannon.

Let me go over some skills:

Hellfire was nerfed very harshly, feels like both in damage, and of course the ignite is weaker and less reliable. Even visiting a rift in catacombs, you need to fire 3-4 hellfires on the tougher normal mobs that give shield to the imps just to have significant impact. all in all, hellfire feels too weak right now.

Flameshards are slow, require you to be at melee range (BAH!) to have their mediocre-at-best damage have full effect, and also are, as i said, give unreliable ignite that mostly does not worth it.

Lightning field is also meh. Those AoEs are dishing such considerably small amounts of damage, even if you are alternating 3 spells with AoE their damage is so supbar (yeah, even with added eles and very high crit chance and crit damage bonus) it feels their impact is very limited.

Arc Legion, I guess I don’t have to expand on this one - the damage on it is so low its laughable, only good sometimes for orbiles because of the auto aim. The status effect applying is nice, but ignite has become pretty useless on bosses / Talox minions / monsters with regen, its simply not worth it. The damage on AL is just laughable and does not even cover regen statuses.

Boneshards is nice, but the cooldown just makes it one hit kinda-wonder.

Spectral bolt is kinda ok. Again, like flameshards, the casting time is slow, and the damage is mediocre at best (in comparison to Summoners, BMs and MMs at the very least).

I could go on. But the bottom line is that Evoker feels like a juking machine, more of a struggle than anything and became not-so-fun to play as.

Just letting you know my personal experience and thoughts to what this class has become, and it feels its really missing its role as a nuker/aoe spammer.

Thanks for reading!

Evoker skills were redesigned in a way which makes AoE field skills generally weaker than close range ones as they are not supposed to clear wast amount of high/average eHP mobs in one blow without heavy investments on damage.

If you invest on larger aoe, you should always feel weaker than you could be with exchanging it for extra damage.

This is all to prevent those 2 mins Cemetery XP runs, which is still possible with some investments, but not right from start.

Demonspine, Spectral Bolts, Flameshards and Venomous Spirit are close range skills designed to kill tougher mobs which were left from your initial AoE skill, and they are supposed to be maxed in order to deal maximum damage.

The initial struggle might be dealing with shielded mobs, you need to get some shield penetration ASAP, which not only helps you kill these more faster but having a chance on applying SFX immediately.

The power of an evoker comes from the ability to stack multiple spells together, which multiplicates your damage output, however, you won’t likely to reach the levels of a mm or bm single target dps, as they were designed to do that, while evoker is more of an AoE class.

Never underestimate your class usefullness because you aren’t dealing the highers dps in your party.

On SFX usefullness, if you deal more than 2% damage to a mob per sec anyway, then you most likely don’t need to rely on SFX.

If you struggle to kill regenerating mobs you should try poison. The extra 2% from ignite only helps you more on those, while you can still use Boneshards as they are not only have a high initial damage burst but a physical DoT as well, which can basically “cancel” the benefits of regeneration for a few seconds.
Stack it all together and you still have room for casting damaging skills on your target.

I am also surprised that you find Arc Legions damage laughable as it was designed to deal the highest amount of continous single target dps along with Spectral Lash.

1 Like

hmm. interesting view. cause i am raising all faction, and i think evoker is the most powerful and easy to play. spectral bolt is not just ok but seriously powerful and it is well synergized with the skill having cooldown. i.e boneshard
u can take almost multiple times more damage with spectral bolt lv.10 than well geared MM’s shot in the same time.
i didn’t take the flame tree, so that’s beyond my knowledge, but bone tree and spectral tree and poison tree is well designed with DPS. how about making clear about your tree and gear?
i’m doing abyss farming and moloch farming and catacombs lv5~10 now i don’t have any problem

1 Like

isn’t ignite 5% or 6%, not 2%?

Its nerfed to be 2% for catacombs / abyss bosses at the very least (and desi and moloch too I presume).

@alternalo

The thing is, SFX like ignite needs to invested greatly to have a moderately consistent effect.
But the changes made to it, making it both harder to proc and less of an impact do not make sense, because it feels like it is based on the old notion that SFX can be easily applied with lots of normal damage on top.
So its both harder to land SFX (even though I’ve maxed flameshards and hellfire, on bosses I would not be able to apply it more often than I would - with over 1500 ignite (!)), and also its nerfed. So even going dedicated ignite is full on crapfest.

@TenaciousJDH

I also tried running damage with Flameshards, Tempest, bone shards, and the occasional lightning field, having around 50-60% crit chance (depends against who since I’m using CCM) with 500-600 critical damage bonus.

So still, I need to be close ranged (flameshards and bone shards need to be close to hit it) so I have to put myself at great risk, Flameshards feels very slow and clunky, and doesnt feel like that combo is doing sufficient amount of damage.

Also the SFX you get from flameshards and hellfire seems redundant because you wanna invest in your damage. Anyway, it feels like there is 0 versatility in this format because tyring to balance those things ends up bad, and even you wanna do mediocre damage you sacrifice any kind of defensive stats and just go blowout damage wise.

Maybe its my fault for not going the supposedly new must-haves (spectral bolt / venom armor combo), as people seem to praise that. But honestly, I don’t believe I should just go with a FotM build just cause. I feel like the Beta evoker is seriously lacking in some aspects, and it feels very wrong to me the way it was treated in the Beta.

well, you stated that to make great DPS, you need to make yourself in danger because of the limit range of powerful skill. I agree with that. but, in that case, you got a boneshard.

here’s how I deal the monster.
In most cases, spectral bolt lv 10, or demon spine lv 10 or venomous spirit lv 10 skill solve all the problem. u don’t need to have all that 3 skills, only need to have 2 skills because of the skill point and cooldown of that skills. those skills are made to deal a single target with so high damagy, so only thing you need to do is press 2,3(if u put the skill there) all the time and aimng the monster. if not enough, here’s boneshard. boneshard’s stun strength is so high, and the damage is so high, all the remained monster will be gone or stunned, if not enough, tempest will clean out all.
I agree that lighting field is a bit weak, so when I raised my evoker character, after first time using that skill 2 or 3 times, i quit using it and go to invest skill point to tempest skill.

2 primitive skills which aims single target and 2 skills which have a cooldown but a good for AOE
that’s all evoker need to have. it is not a lot to do.
u can use other trees like curse tree, which i don’t test yet. but spectral curse can be powerful

In your tree, how about using brom’s curse?
you are using flame build, and to make a great DPS, you need to keep using firestorm all the time.
as I know, firestorm hits so frequently, so i think brom’s curse make you safe in the close enemy situation. doesn’t it work?

Just to make it clear, the 5% ignite damage is supposed to be applied to regular mobs, bosses were always set to receive only 1-2% (this value varies depending on boss).

Catacombs bosses were receiving the full 5% damage a regular mob would get, this was a bug, and it’s now set to 2% as a fix.

The ignite attack strength of Flameshards and HF wasn’t changed at all.

1 Like

Honestly, this just reinforces to me how aggravating retraining skills is.

I have gotten to rank 12 so far and am still not having trouble leveling anything, but new players have no idea what is the ‘developer’s design’ for FOTM or a class’s role in the meta. I have made zero efforts in Parliament or Stonehenge - haven’t’ tried any raid bosses yet. I’m still working through the nightmare quest line (I spent a LOT of time getting levels in ABs).

Yeah, this game is 15 years old, and yeah, back then skill retraining was intended to be hard, but it’s 2020 now. The standards for retraining skills have changed, and where there is a scenario where a classes skills aren’t very well balanced, the relative inability to retrain skills is going to be what leads me to stop playing.

I picked an AOE route for my evoker Elliott. I knew nothing about this game (2038) - I started meaningfully playing with beta. My entire build revolves around spectral lash and afflicting phase on enemies - I’ve gone balls in on phase sfx and for leveling sake it has absolutely worked. My phase attack with mods as I understand the calculation is over 1000 now.
I also have Tempest for in close DPS - another, worse mistake I made from looking at Mew’s data. I also ‘wasted’ a good 6-8 points in my build for stuff I THOUGHT I needed for leveling early on (drain power, drain life, etc).

Tempest I realized my mistake only after I invested heavy in it, so I went and loaded up concatenate damage next to try to mitigate that mistake. Such as it is.

I looked at Mew’s post about Evokers and some old alpha builds and this is what I went with, but now I’m reading that this is not only not my role as designed, but I’m all but permanently gimped when it comes to doing end game content.

Honestly, if truly accurate it’s going to demotivate me from continuing to play much longer. The idea of deleting and re-rolling from level 20? Fine. However not now. Skill retrainers are such a rare drop they go for upwards of a million palladium. For a semi-casual like me, that’s overwhelming. I’m not suggesting that we get the opportunity to reset skills willy-nilly, but what exists now is not a realistic option for me.

This experience is really demotivating me from leveling an additional character. Without information on skills, damage and usefulness readily available, and no realistic means of retraining skills…it is demotivating to keep trying with other characters.

3 Likes

Brom’s not really viable IMO. I have 4 skills of it from items, but it takes precious time to cast it. Unlike MM, spamming spells with evoker takes precious time. Its hard to control who Brom’s kills, and using Brom + Hellfire takes a considerable amount of time, and your Brom is random so it might just hit smallson mobs that die fast anyway.

Also, I did say you need to be close to do good damage, but at the end its relative to how I feel a good evoker damage is mediocre at best. It’s “good” damage, but not really cause it kinda sucks.

Firestorm’s DPS as I stated is laughable in endgame contents like Abyss and catacombs. It’s just sad, and doesn’t do enough of an impact aside of clearing trash maps. You could spam it all you want but Shielded enemies, or any rare/legendary monsters will laugh you off. Then, you have to tank on close range with flameshards to slowly kill those minibosses.

Another example is Talox’s minions at advanced stages. Evoker is just so trash against them. It feels like Evokers’ impact is 1/5th of an equivalent MM / summoner. For a glass cannon DPS class, thats just absurd. You could sit there and spam your spec lash and boneshards and whatnot, and barely see any damage done, while that MM behind your (let alone summoner) melts off their faces easily, or at least contributing some. And again, I’m talking about a character that has all the abyss items and racks 50-60 crit chance and about 500-600% cdb with ele damage where possible. That’s kind of absurb, on top of the fact that going SFX route doesn’t lead you anywhere.

So yeah, it feels like Evokers took a really bad turn in the beta, for me at least. This non-diversity kinda takes away the willingness to play, if I’m being honest…

Skill retrainer is 650k on CH which is worth of few hours of farming - try farming and selling necro essences, join or create party for Abyss Squadro farm to gain unique items you can sell for 200-300k average, Stonehenge head set farming is good way too - 80k per 1 set of 4 heads, treasure passageways farming works just fine aswell.
The whole deal of skill retrainers not being overly accesible which is also subject to discussion too - it is solid 1/3 of 5% drop from Moloch so you would need 60 runs on average= 10-15 head sets in full party to get it. And the incentive behind this besides obvious "please do Stonehenge content, collect head sets and do some Moloch “raids” is that there is not that much content in the game that originally intended to have high replayability value. If everything will be too accesible we’ll run out of things to do in month or two and then player retention will nuke the online like nuclear bomb and there will be barely any people playing the game till next huge update.

1 Like

Totally agree here. The cast time on it can be debilitating. I find myself still using drain life (which I took before I knew any better) more. I do have a thorns dye kit too, and I do use lightning storm in conjunction…

1 Like

Joining a party is not really viable for me. I cannot guarantee large blocks of time to anyone.

I can log a lot of play time but my time is not really my own in most cases. One of the allures of playing this game is it is similar to a single player ARPG where I can log in and log out at will without major negative in game ramifications. It’s either slow at work, or I’m at the beck and call of my kids when I’m not at work.

Thanks for the farming insights - I am open (and appreciate) any additional advice on farming for palladium. I know - quite literally - nothing about post 50 life. I don’t have a guild or anyone to get a steady stream of good advice from, and I hate really bothering people like you on discord over and over again :slight_smile:

As far as replay value, to me the replay value of this game was never about what one character can do. This is a game designed like D2/LOD. Don’t mistake it for a standard MMORPG. The replay value was always in playing the different classes.

Try asking for invite into Immortal Souls semi-casual guild i think they have alot of people online any time of the day.
Dont be shy of asking something in chat - there is always people around like me, donhce and others who will answer your questions and will give a good advise.
In regards to replay value i meant the difference of getting done with the game in under 100hrs with all existing characters and probably multiple chars of same class if everything will be easy to get versus spending a few hundreds or much more to max out everything as for current iteration of balance.

It’s always a balancing act but ultimately, no developer ever really can keep up with true powergamers. It’s foolish to even try.

edit: Also, there’s the hardcore aspect as a time sink as well. That is something I’ve just started dipping into myself.

Im using Afterlife i got from focus item and it works good but takes some time to cast and is not reliable in “hot” situations.

I have tried to use chat but for some reason i cannot ask anything on chat-1. When i hit enter it is always local and changing tabs wont give me access to chat-1. Maby some tips or explanation about how to navigate chat? THX in advance, im sure those things are basic but for some they are not intuitive at all.

if you type /chat it will change for you.

1 Like

Here is full list of chat commands

2 Likes

Personally, I don’t think that the scarcity of Retrainers is a proper way to increase replayability. If anything, I’d say it’s an incentive to get frustrated with the game. Testing anything takes enormous amounts of time, and skill point distribution is gear dependant so you either plan your build around the bis items (assuming you know what they are beforehand) or risk having wasted skill points after an item upgrade.

To me, replayability comes from grinding gear and having alts. The idea that a convenience item is one of the more prestigious drops in the game feels weird to me. I’d prefer even free respec of D3 to 1M (or 650k) retrainers; I’d still have multiple Engineers but leveling them would be far more enjoyable.

2 Likes

It’s just really frustrating to know that my character does 1/10 (one tenth!!) DPS than lets say MM. That’s outrageously low! And both of us had the arguably BiS items (abyss items) and best guns. That just feels wrong.
And yes, I was using Boneshard, flameshards, tempest and the occasional hellfire all at once and alternating between them. Let alone that ignite feels many time unreliable even with 1500 attack strength (on each focus!).
It makes me feel useless and takes away the fun of playing the game being so underperforming. That imbalance is too great considering an Evo is supposed to be a cannon in addition to being glass.

Anyway, just my 2 cents about this. it feels wrong and very imbalanced and I hope the devs will see to fix it.