Class balance - struggling as MM


#1

First of all, il get the deserved praise for creating this project out of the way, thankyou for providing a place for fans of the game to get their fix in a multiplayer environment.
Now onto my quibbles.

I have recently started on london2038 with a couple of friends, and while I’ve enjoyed it I have been struck by the chasm between class capabilities, especially in the beginning first 20 or levels.

I understand classes hit power surges at different stages in the game but this feels less like late blooming and far more like broken number values.

The hunter and caster classes struggle to output 1/10th of the damage a blademaster can by simply pressing one button.

I realise this is alpha and tweaks are obviously coming but I really was surprised that there were no posts regarding this. Im also not against challenging game play but when such a blatant chasm between classes exists it becomes very frustrating trying to persevere with poor damage and constant deaths while watching your friend one shot packs of mobs with one mouse click.

I played the game many years back but am by no means claiming an extensive knowledge in it, but as I said earlier, I don’t ever recall struggling so much with MM or Engi as I have on this server.
Is this a known power imbalance? Am I missing something here? Its felt as if kitting out my MM with ccms of the caste I am fighting is mandatory whereas I don’t even bother modding my Bms swords and they still kill entire packs in less than a second.


#2

Hello Disco, welcome :slight_smile:

The problem you mention is very real, and it only really starts going away (to some extent) in the endgame. Though it’s not a choice we made, nor is it one that’s going to stay as it is. It’s the state the game was in during TCv4, the last version of Flagship’s Hellgate.

That difference in power mostly boils down to Hunters having gotten the least attention and BMs having gotten the most in TCv4.
BMs were apparently too weak before, so they were in the middle of massive rebalancing at the time. The patchnotes emphasize this quite strongly: Abyss Chronicles build 4 notes
SoJ is the most visible culprit to boot; no other skill performs at its level, frankly.

So rest assured that this is neither intentional nor permanent. Such imbalances are very high on the list of priorities for when we transition from Alpha to Beta.


#3

Thankyou for the clarification. That’s very reassuring to hear, I look forward to the realised potential of this great game.


#4

Best solution is to have a rifle and a area damage rocket launcher, to deal with bigger and smallers target arround the game. The char power is a late game because it comes from a 100% bonus damage from single target beacon skill, multi-shot for triple damage and up to 100% crit chances with a few good legendary items with 3% crit chances and bonus from multiples mods on your weapons.
As a start I allways found to farm a boss from the first town several times:
https://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/822/822734/hellgate-london-20070925061009679-000.jpg
For that chance he drop this weapons:
The XM107 Firefox Launcher
Description: The Firefox is a grenade launcher that fires napalm bombs, which leave a burning field in their place. Its projectiles are almost instant hit, but it fires rather slowly. It should be dismissed , since any marksman should take at least one rank in napalm strike, thus rendering this weapon useless.
FARM IT UNTIL YOU GET ONE and level them to +6 to aboid high amount of requirement, this will server you well even at level 30+, one weapon to rule them all. Rifles are better but is very hard to aim and in many ocation mobs bug out and you can’t even shoot then, this splash weapon can save your life in those moments. In all my life using this type of weapon I can say with confidence it does all and all 1/3 of the damage of a good rifle, but multiply this damage when you find many targets arround you and consider how easy is to aim with it (stress free): This video show you a higher level version of this same weapon, but the theory is the same since on inferno everything melt apart, hell is another world: https://youtu.be/H1htajfTaGs?t=472


#5

Playing HCE only, since the original beta, the BM late game couldn’t come close to mobs as he would be trashed, his sustainability and damage just could not cut it (long enough to get his beef), so changes in TCv4 were necessary. B4 Hunters were killing everything and the BM was sidelined. Now the BM is sustainable and dishes damage, yet SoJ is a serious issue as the BM is the closest thing to a one skill killer and all other skills aren’t anywhere near.

Having played the MM in various builds, specialization is key, as one is being told by NPC throughout the game, literally. Playing an Assaulter with maxed Multishot tree as well as ravaged and rebounding rounds and dual handguns I find that the MM lacks proper weapons and not skills, whereas the BM needs his skills reworked more than it needs better weapons.

After all, the Hunters just vanish when the heat is on and get on shooting from a distance again. With sprint maxed out and Escape as well as Artist skilled at least to 3 you can outrun and kill any mob, while dropping strikes from a second and third weapon set. That is a strong point not to be underestimated.

I do get that most people want the Hunters to be as strong as a BM closeup while being far away, as tough as a Guard while being in an infight and still shoot from a distance … but then we would all end up playing Hunters like people play BM now… we had that pre TCv4 on live servers. Pretty much everyone played Hunters, because of their massive punch. BMs were virtually useless, could only guard Hunters from the occasional rift coils that got thru … boring as Murmur used to say.

Just my take on the disc.


#6

"I do get that most people want the Hunters to be as strong as a BM closeup while being far away, as tough as a Guard while being in an infight and still shoot from a distance"

Myself nor anyone else in the thread is suggesting anything close to this, please dont put words in my mouth.

I think its a fair expectation as a supposed glass cannon to trade low survivability for heavy damage.

I dont make this post as an MM main advocating my class is made strong. I make this post as a fan of the game and the variety it brings when properly balanced.


#7

Hey, thanks for the advice and links. I will most definitely try out your suggestions.


#8

The Hunter class has heavy damage. It lacks alternative weaponry and accessories that cut, especially late game. Hus, Duellos, the Shoulderpack forgot the name and a Maverick are the only way so far, and that’s the shame plus slighty to high feeds. Hell I am under equipped and barely got to 1k life - HCE and ACC 300+. My BM has 300+ STR and is around 25xx life, just for comparison. Moloch fireblows the MM in a jiffy and close to no one plays Guard with Aura of Deflection these days.

The skill set of the Hunters is fine, while their equip needs adjustment, and the BM needs further skill adjustment, refinement and less weaponry adjustments.

TCv4 should have been V1.0 for release so the game has still a long way to go…thank god the guys picked up the ball to do so, who knows … World of Hellgate may be possible :slight_smile:


#9

Marksman ain’t a good solitary char, you should combine that char in partys with others players. It offer bonus damage to single and multiple target and dps ain’t the most powerfull but is a char that really help defeat bosses with the highest amount of HP when combine with an Evoker. This game trully shine when you combine good chars of several classes, the higest dps is achive by an Evoker when combine with 90%+ bonus dmg from a MM Beacon Skill (70% on engeneer) and +47% extra from a Blade master (35% from a Guardian). And the most powerfull Area Damage comes from a Engeneer when combine with multibeacon from an MM and any other armor reduction or even Phase status (bosses are inmune to this) apply to small mobs.


#10

Beacon is maxed out at 30%. A Hunter will have problems reaching 30% crit, not sure where you have your numbers from. Also with Ravager and Rebounding Rounds maxed Multishot does more than triple damage to mobs and not even triple the damage on single monsters. No real need for a splash weapon. Dual Handguns with 1200 rounds per second hails down whatever comes your way, drop in a few nice on hit nova mods and watch them wither away like dust in the wind.

MM might not be good soloing Moloch, but cuts thru the rest of the game all by himself.
Played my 50ish HCE almost completely alone.

@Disco
Glass Cannon and survivability are two sets of shoes. While the MM gets a one blow death by for example Moloch the MM on the other hand has or can have huge survivability. Overshield maxed with prop equip can get you to 3k shields, suck an emitter et voila another 5k+, plus Escape and Evasion on his equip make for high survivability as a Glass Cannon.


#11

There’s tons of changes between london 2038 marksman skills and hellgate london :global.
I have played hellgatelondon since openbeta to hellgate global 2012. And my main character was MM. I may made a mistake remembering exact number. But main messages I want to say is not going wrong.

  1. Beacon damage increases 5% not 2%

With only 2 % of increasing whenever u put 1 skill point, u can hardly feel the difference.

  1. Multishot not only increases firing accuracy and also increases its duration 1 second so 10 skill make it long almost 13 seconds

Now 10 skill point on multishot makes MM just another worse version of rapid fire build.
But if u could have 13 seconds of multishot and u could have more by reducing cooltime, MM would have been much better. And item farming will mean a lot.

That’s why there’s no marksman lv 50 actively playing and why u are having a hard time to play MM. Now MM is just crripled one.


#12

Hmm, Skill cooldown can be decreased thru items, 20%-30% can be done … when teaming up with a skilled Haste Bot Engineer even higher … all little tweaks to make people have a real reason to play with others.

Why bother playing with others if there isn‘t any real benefit? That’s why I stopped playing in Korea. It turned out to be an egomaniacal children’s game. Hellgate:Global totally screwed game balance and sense.

I just don‘t like that the MM has feeds which are way to high and all builds go for:

Duellos of the Duelist
Sues Steadiers
Mavericks
Hue Hyperfist

to be really effective… and to get a sense of punch on the MM. When going for the ultimate kill on hardcore elite, Sydonai NM you can feel that. A feat no Templar can do or achieve, or has been known to me to have succeeded in, on Hardcore Elite that is. Not paying attention to any other game modes.

I personally have seen MM, Engineer, Evoker and Summoner kill him and survive it. My Templar’s got whacked in the process, just to close up (-;. Whereas the other classes can do it even on their own…

So yeah, the MM needs a little tweaking, minor in the feeds and some improvement on item variability especially in the end game.


#13

Don’t get me wrong. And don’t blame me as a selfish one. I play all characters. still I think MM is a bad one.
U are intentionally missing some crucial points
Why MM should get additional cooltime reducing effect from engineer, not by 10 skill points?
And 3 seconds multishot cooltime 30 seconds.
Really? U think it’s well balanced?

And according your logic, if u get 5 % beacon, it also helps other party player too. So Increasing number 2 to 5 for beacon is not a problem.

And why all MM must have all crit items to do the normal job? With normal gear, MM is just incapable of dealing damage. I mean without all full sets of crit items. And this also limits diversity of build.
SUE and Hu’s hypershot? How many players can have all sets? What u are saying just makes your logic weaker


#14

Yes, I agree in regard to equipment choices and crit dmg output. Also, I did not say that it is well balanced, just that it needs a bit of tweaking … but not in a HG:L Global way … that would kill the game for me, as it did b4.

I also play all classes and have come to enjoy the MM as a Grenadier, Striker, Assaulter, Sniper and “jack of all trades”. 30s cooldown is a tad bit long, but only a tad. 25s would suffice. Also duration could get a slight beef, like 0.2 seconds per skillpoint to get it to an overall 5 second dur. That way you´d have it every 20s or with equip and an Engi 10-15s. Otherwise ppl would play MS constantly … and that would destroy the tactical balance.

Again, I said that it is kind of boring that all MM have to go for:

Duellos of the Duelist
Sues Steadiers
Mavericks
Hue Hyperfist

to be able to dish out damage. Yet, I see this more of a problem with the super high feed req of the MM. Even if I´d play the MM with close to no stamina, which I can´t cuz of the req feed I would still not be able to cut a cookie if I don´t have stated items above … with lower feeds on mods one could pick the weapon and setup he or she likes and stack mods to make up for lesser dmg output of an Hue´s. Again the problem to me is not the Hue´s or skills, but feed balance on the MM to make him the killer he is.

So, I do agree with your view that the MM needs tweaking, I just don´t draw the same conclusions as to how to mitigate the “problematic”. To you it is more skills and to me it is more feeds and items.

That´s all :slight_smile:


#15

To consolidate a few points, and address them accordingly.

  1. Global vs 2038 (TCv4).
    Global did make some good calls, no doubt. The TC also did. However, Global’s landscape was ultimately centered on generating revenue through the Forge, and the TC was incomplete.
    So, while one cannot deny that both versions had their problems, it’s important to judge both based on their realities; one as a P2W critfest, the other as an incomplete transition from pre-2.0 Hellgate into something that never came (since even Global reverted 2.0 back to 1.3 and built back up from there).

  2. Marksmen and crit.
    Marksmen are designed around crits, there’s no doubt about that. Items with +crit would certainly be welcome and useful, especially in the endgame, and it is odd to have to resort to pre-TC uniques to pronounce this.
    This also needs to be examined in a wider context though; the TC also nerfed CCM, and I believe it intended to remove it. MMs also have the most inherent +crit options (excluding perhaps the BMs’ Surges), which however also require a specific playstyle; Sniper Mode. So,

a) is critcapping desirable? If not, what % is sufficient?

b) is Sniper Mode desirable as an imperative of the class towards crit builds?
b1) if it is, how do other build options measure up to it?
b2) if it isn’t, how should it become viable/appealing, while still allowing crit builds to be viable outside of it (if that in itself is desirable)?
b3) how can it, along with the various weapon options (especially 2-handers since those boast the most slots), best provide both efficiency and room for build diversity?
Because frankly, Global’s crit-or-bust approach was efficient for MMs, but also the only way to go.

c) How can crits be integrated into the playstyle beyond providing devastating autofire?
Earlier Rounds that depended on crit procs would be a good example of this.
c1) depending on the above, what’s ultimately a desirable crit %?

  1. Multishot.
    Multishot currently has a 30’’ CD and a 5’’ duration. With full +boost gear its duration can be increased to 10’’, and Haste Bot can reduce the CD further.
    While it’s not wrong to advocate for more viability of the skill (ie addition to skillgroups whose affixes may reduce its CD/increase its duration further), it’s also significant to note that
    a) it’s an extremely powerful skill, and
    b) it’s designed as a burst skill at its core.
    Rapid Fire can be reduced to equal duration and CD (3’’), but it’s never used as much as Multishot; it’s simply inferior, especially in terms of mobility (or lack thereof).
    So buffing Multishot I do agree with, but it’s important to remember that, in its extreme form, it could become the next 1-skill build. It synergizing with Demolitions is great and could produce more builds of that nature, but until such skills become more useful than Hus’ autofire it could be a huge liability.

  2. (Mod) Feeds.
    Feeds are a very hard topic to properly tackle, as any changes to affix feeds directly affect all classes. Addressing weapon (/armor) feeds individually may be more practical in this context.
    Still, I don’t disagree that feeds may negatively affect a class and its potential.

It’s noteworthy though that current mod feeds are wrong to begin with; they’re practically higher than they should be. Once they are repaired there should be a clearer picture of the exact extent to which feeds impact MMs.


#16

I don’t agree with the Bryan’s analysis about multishot
of course, it must be a ‘burst’ skill, not a passive skill.
but, Bryan said full +boost gear increase its duration, but can it be really done, not theoretically?

Every MM, who want to take crit build, should have a full crit armor set, including SUE, Duellos, maverick.
and as all people agree, it is not easy to have all crit armor set, and whoever want to take multishot build, “every” armor must have boost option. then u can have 10 seconds, still 20 seconds to wait.
Bryan said rapid fire sacrifice mobility, but rapid fire build can have additional damage from the skill “heightened sense”, and additional cool time reduction from the skill controlled burst.
In that case, there’s no need to all +boost skill option at all.
Is it fair comparing with the rapid fire build? I don’t think so.

multishot build can have a advantage of using napalm, smack down, shock and awe.
To be fair, I will compare it’s damage to endgame contents.
Can napalm skill using multishot reallly good for paliament monster, or its boss? I don’t think so

Bryan insist that it is powerful skill, which I agree, but there’s more things to concern.
when u activate multishot skill, the aim desperately diverges, so from MM’s view, it’s not easy to use.
If someone want all 3 shots to enemy, MM have to take close range to enemy. Is it fair for MM?

Not every people just like to endure long time waiting for end game theoretical damage, gathering all crit sets, and hoping to get all boost skill succesfully to all “crit set armor”

Bryan keep focusing on the end game MM’s damage, but i focus on how to go there.
That’s the difference among me and him.


#17

To start with, I don’t believe I even took sides in this. I mostly stated facts about the current/old designs, and only added my opinions very lightly where appropriate. I very specifically said that I agree there are issues, and that I’m open to discussing solutions.

It can absolutely be done. If any endgame player can go after specific augments to further build on their build’s strengths, MMs can go for +boost.
Whether doing so is unfair compared to others, or whether MS is the only way to go, that’s valid concerns that I’m not against discussing.

In theory that’s great, but in practice I found that RF was used much, much less than MS, even when accounting for passive RF boosts.
This happens for a few reasons, the primary one being the loss of mobility. If the damage difference was decent enough to warrant the extra point investment and the mobility loss I suppose RF would be used more, but it’s not. That’s why I presented MS as the endgame option that’s under scrutiny instead of RF; players simply prefer it, and it can actually interact with other skills like Rounds and Grenades/Strikes when RF can’t.

I specifically agreed with this;
So buffing Multishot I do agree with, but it’s important to remember that, in its extreme form, it could become the next 1-skill build. It synergizing with Demolitions is great and could produce more builds of that nature, but *until such skills become more useful than Hus’ autofire* it could be a huge liability.

I agreed that there’s many factors to consider when discussing such skills; that was the whole point of my post, really.
And yes, the scope spread is rather unfair. FSS didn’t really promote ranged gameplay or mobility for Hunters for some odd reason, as can be seen through the designs of such things as the TC set and Thundergods.

I did agree with this too;
Items with +crit would certainly be welcome and useful, especially in the endgame, and it is odd to have to resort to pre-TC uniques to pronounce this.

I have to focus on the endgame, because that’s where people will stay. Leveling is temporary while the endgame is permanent; any changes made to any skills or items to make leveling easier will affect the endgame unless properly thought out and analyzed.
That was the whole point of my post to begin with; I agree that there’s a problem, and ask that we consider all factors when discussing them and proposing solutions.

Not really sure where we even disagree.


#18

ok then, there’s nothing to say, i will my MM keeps in low level until there will be some good news for making multishot build normal.


#19

Not much else that can be done at this point, I’m afraid.
I also haven’t leveled a MM or Summoner beyond 50/10ish for the same reason; these classes are lacking in their current forms.