Gundian Response 15.1.5 Patch another new Guardian Build

Good day fellas this will be a follow up response regarding my thoughts on the patch 15.1.5 specifically the topic on the gundian. Firstly let me address if there was any other engagements done before I joined the server in 2022 regarding the issues with templar guns only updates are implemented in real time please accept my apologies as i’m aware the hellgate London project began in 2017 so I’m catching information as much as i can in real time.

Let’s discuss where I am at as I still feel I’m very new to the server but still have the experience of the original hellgate london. So transitioning to the server was a bit challenging at first but now I’m beginning to understand why the game is where it is at the moment. A lot has been done & a lot of topics have been covered regarding the Gundian update so fairly me joining the server I still feel like a Grade1 student with everything already in place but the team desire feedback if the Gundian was heading in the right direction. I need to be really clear of the time stamps because I think Bryan has the impression i’ve been here for a very long time which i fairly understand because these topics were already cover topics of the first generation Gundian.

The Gundian is fairly heading in the right direction but since I joined the server as a new player in January 2022 most of the items were very new. I got the impression this was the idea of how the Gundian Should be. In 2022 as a new player January my first patch experience drop was1.5.7b this is when I got my hands on some new items as I was playing Guardian at that time “Kilij Reforge” was introduced to me. Best unique Afflictor pistol ever that’s when I decided i need a different built for this, not knowingly I was building a new different Gundian the pistol was lacking a lot of things weapon accuracy wasn’t right the missiles was spreading everywhere i wasn’t hitting my targets that well I felt the pistol was more of field splash but I felt this has way more potential than any other templar guns then i started searching for armour pieces then i found “Order Armour sets” which can support kilij setup.

During that time a second patch dropped in March 2022 patch 1.5.8b which had some amour pieces the “Templar Order Sets. Now my Gundian had a full complete set that supports everything that I needed for the Kilij to work. Here’s why the devs didn’t notice this development happening in real time since the guys were working to improve classes but also fixing some item during heavy engagements on discord i think the guys were caught up in fixing the first generation Gundian which players at the time were seeking to fix but I was the only player playing at that time working on a second generation Gundian with some new item builds but also experimenting different types of weapons which actually work with this set up. This is why I think we are all in the mix of misunderstanding because I see why Bryan was engaging heavily in what needs to be tweaked on first Generation Gundian. I was also trying to engage in discord like a mad guy like this is my data analysis & this is what shows on this gundian. Maybe they did not see what they created a second generation Gundian without knowing.

At that time very fairly indeed I was enjoying this Gundian more. I think I was the only player at that time that went head on Sydonai, especially using new items. I think people didn’t ask for this Gundian. So as I was experimenting i saw my gear didn’t match some weapons at that time some weapons like the bolters requires different attribute stats Nova Guns that require more willpower some guns didn’t work with my amour pieces some didn’t work with missile speed or didn’t hit targets it was a mess then i saw there’s a problem here. So I created another Gundian just to be sure I’m building it the right way I also had issues with my Gundian in the beginning but during heavy engagements on discord i started doing research I saw Bryans video with a different type of Gundian Aladinf had another Gundian another upgrade to the first generation he also was testing his limits which he also had issues with nova explosions in different areas but he managed to get his Gundian right by clearing catacombs by himself till this day impressive video. As I was experimenting as well I saw there were heavy issues with items. That’s when I got my hands on the Nicks & the deadly peppers. My data was showing 2 bolters but performing differently. Then I came to realise they were not really optimised to work with the second generation Gundian but fairly on the first generation guardian. Just to simplify it guns have a unique feed cost that only works if you have a different armour set according to your Gundian build. For instance if you plan to run Nova storms that require more will points it will be very difficult to run Nick Nailguns. If you run Kilij in an order set you have a tough time to allocate attribute points to deadly peppers. Just the math system point on items is all over the place very daily i know why because we were not gunplay class to begin with. So you have to make tough calls about which guns suit your set.

Just to make it clear Guardians was not meant for this kind of design at all but I figured it is possible because you had a 3 skill group that could make a guardian that works with a dual gunplay Prayer anchor taunt & defence auras. Now since you have a clear background to where we are in the gundian conversation “Bryans Question Quote “On the latter, I don’t get why eg Vanya’s is not viable now that nova damage scales to player level, or why Nightslasher is not designed for Gundians when it has +nova damage in it”

Answer: “Just to make it clear I got nothing against on both items fairly both guns are great the first generation Gundian will enjoy these because i think they were specifically designed for this type of Guardian I’m sure it was meant for heavy nova players like Aladinf with his guardian fairly he got his built to what he wanted if his upgrade was vanyas & the nightlasher fairly it will perfectly work for his first generation build”

Bryan Quotes Okay, I think I’m starting to see an issue. Are you judging Gundian guns, or defining guns as Gundian guns, based on their affinity for crit? Because if so, that would probably explain your perspective.

Answer: The reason I chose the crit route I think I’ve done 2000 hours Play time on the second generation Gundian reason being I had to trust my own data analysis in real time than to rely on another tester on how should i play this gundian so I made protocol not to jump to discord when I come across every discovery. Because players are playing their Gundian To explain my second generation gundian further my crit build Gundian is single target focus kilij has the right dmg as much as Guardians cannot be an MM 20x but a single target build was out performing any templar guns & that was the motivation that i needed. The idea of a single target focus was I can get rid of anything in a single target shot my Order armour pieces support my kilijs so far my crit checks out so going forward with this was the best decision i ever made. A very huge bill of cause but it was worth every cent.

Bryan Quote: “Are you excluding novas from them, focusing only on crit performance”
My first generation Gundian has that build but since i didn’t enjoy the Nightlashers that much I settled for the vorpals rippers they work nicely currently. I didn’t do much really all i did was stack every nova mod on them I clear everything quite well. Bare in mind that I didn’t spend a lot of time on that build so I did that build within a few months. The patch dropped in november I played a few hours throughout December & that was it for me so since the nova patch fix in march there was nothing more to explore because the patch fixed some of the novas I think Aladinf may had fun with his build because thats what he wanted i even gave him some of my new items he couldn’t find I’m sure he had fun but for me I felt my current built was fine with the old items

Bryan Quote: are you evaluating these guns based on just crit affinity? Because many of those are built specifically for novas, and so excluding that design element would of course muddle evaluations. Which leads me to 3), how come you’re not trying a nova build with those now that their damage calculation is (hopefully) proper?

In all honesty if you still not quite sure how the novas should perform at this point in the game I think is safe for me to think there hasn’t been another alternative to move forward because i felt the novas are fine with my first generation gundian build yes there’s a lot of challenges to get them right so my second generation gundian cannot participate in this. Weapon built is quite different Now I understand why novas were a topic for Gundian builds. That’s why I gave my analysis on the peppers & the nicks so granted the peppers will not be touched but they still work very well in my case with my first generation Gundian. Nicks as you explained Quote “From what we’ve been told Nick’s was among the best Gundian guns - by “Gundian” meaning a nova build. With 3 elements (of which 2 are splash) and 3 sfx, 600 RoF, a built-in nova, and now 3/4 slots being capable of holding Electric Novas, we did not feel it was safe to just buff it further.
Of course yes, it does not have much affinity for crit.”

Granted context here I’ll move forward using Kilij , Sine Nomine , Desolator & the burning crusader with my crit current build. I feel they are more equipt & the right approach on having good crits on my second generation Gundian. I have more data that lets me know that this was the alternative route. However since my play time was over 2000 I felt my second generation gundian wasn’t offered that much. I mean my initial request was get the peppers at least 25M now i know it will never happen. I requested the nails should be given some prouder thought where they belong. They work on my second generation Gundian not only that set up was just right for them. Since it was tech slot fix I’m sorry I have to reject them because there’s nothing i can do as the kilij work on second generation Gundian as my other piece they work as my first weapon choice. Peppers & the Vorpals are just fine on the first generation Gundian but for me the patch was fine at least it will give some players 2 types of Gundians that could play with.

I didn’t make assumptions about your time on the server, in all honesty. It generally doesn’t concern me how long one has been playing, and I’d rather just focus on their arguments.

Historically, the Gundian has indeed been a nova build. How it “should” be is debatable, but support at the time largely catered to what the Gundian was at the time.
To this day, nova builds are largely more agreeable because they provide good clear times and easier PvE without pushing a defensive melee class toward boss DPS using weapons it was not made for. This is why the crit Gundian has not consciously been as supported, as it’s a more questionable route than the nova variant.

Yes, we were not able to notice that a player was (or a few were) trying out the crit route. This route is, still, less popular, less supported, and less desirable on our end - so indeed, when we say we support “Gundians” we largely support nova builds. Not exclusively, but largely.
We did, that said, support general gunplay through the Order set as you mention. That this helps any kind of Gundian build is fortunate.

Indeed. And most guns cannot be designed or tweaked to support both routes at once, because they must have a central purpose and, at best, a secondary one. Us balancing any item equally around both is nigh impossible, and so is tweaking items explicitly designed for nova builds to perform well for crit builds.
The better route on this front would be to design items explicitly for crit builds - but that’s not quite desirable, as outlined above.

That’s entirely understandable, and that you’re focusing on single-target damage makes sense. But, as outlined above, such routes will always be less supported because they’re less agreeable on the whole, given what they do.

That armor novas now work, after all these years, should also reveal some new routes. Eg, tankier Guardians could leverage whenhit novas.
But yes, if your build does not value novas that development does not say much.

How are we not sure how novas should perform? The entire nova damage saga was due to the armor nova fix creating complications, and we’ve since been trying to restore them to exactly where they were before. It was never about “not knowing”.

I’ve explained that Bolters have a dangerous skill, but I’ve left the window open for safe tweaks. Range may well be safe, but crit absolutely is not; if the skill is dangerous on its own, imagine how it could escalate with crits and the 1k CDB you’ve shown.

I’ve explained that Nick’s Nailgun already works well for specific purposes, and is too much of an all-rounder to also become better for crit builds. Still, the tech slot is not useless for crit builds; it could fit another +ele/CCM mod or one along those lines, making it better than it was before.
Whether it’ll reach Kilij is debatable, and probably unlikely, but Kilij does not attempt to be a nova gun - and Nick’s is one by design.

Great, then that’s a net benefit. But I hope it’s clear that bonuses to crit Gundians will always be slow and new items will cater to them much less, because the direction of single-target damage Guardians using guns is not one we’re quite eager to push. Still, Guardians will still have a bunch of build options, including that one.

I hope this clears things up.

1 Like