My reason and feedback on Regen-mobs

I’m guessing it’s no secret anymore that mobs with either regen or viviacious are nought
unkillable on starting levels and up to L30 unless you have really REALLY good items.
I myself has ran into several mobs with one of the two buffs and despite buying swords
with poison and adding poison-mods to them, most of the time’s i’ve been unable kill
them in any reasonable time and instead been forced to sit there and spam my
attack and “hope” that rng gives me enough poisonprocs to stop them from healing fully.

On higher levels when players starts getting their hands on more powerful items and
also become more powerful, it’s slightly easier to kill regen mobs, but only slightly.

My L28 tank runs around with a 4slot Hiveblade using 4poison mods, and i’ve still been forced
to simply walk away from monsters because i couldn’t beat their regen.

As a longtime Hellgate player and a supporter of removing the normal mode i can fully understand
that ELITE mode is suppose to be harder. But if i can start feeling the frustration and aggravation
build up because i can’t kill basic rare monsters due to their overpowered regen,
just think what new players will feel like when they run into a simple rare monster that they can’t kill,
and is forced to leave it… or even worse - if its a Quest-related kill and they can’t kill it…

I’ve also seen multiple regen-monsters completely boost to 100% health instantly
just when they’re about 10% health, and i don’t know if this is a bug or intended.

Anyhow… this is my opinion and reasoning.

Lower the amount of regen of the mobs on the lower to mid lvl,
keep the rest as they are.

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You fought Wurm in British Museum dozens if not hundreds of times before yet have you never seen him doing this? Thats the first time the game introduces you to a “regen” or rather “heal” mechanic. Yes now we have constant regen in addition to it but i still think that lvl6ish is a good time to learn and find how to deal witch said mechanic.
You might aswell educate yourself on the matter of which affix does what then although i must admit yes those pages might be not accurate 100% numerically wise but still they give a general idea


Honestly HGL has pretty simple design of mechanics even for its time and even now after the dev team improved some of them they all still are very basic. I have a feeling that it is just players are really reluctant to learn how to do them or find “effective” workarounds.
Im not trying to offend anyone but complexety of monster and boss design is somewhat on par with wow vanilla earliest dungeon from 2004 at its best. I know i compare oranges with apples but even for hack’n’slash/arpg the game requiers very little from player on top of mindless “ME HULK ME SMASH” now with the ocasional “ME SPIT YOU POISON”. The game have very few tricks in its sleeve you just need to learn one or two and how to use them correctly.
Again returning to a wow vanilla example TLDR: for over a decade people sperged about how vanilla was so hard, boses were insane and dungeons were imposible to beat but after release of wow classic it turned out that players at the time were not just plain bad but absolutely horrendous at the game. Again no offence and nothing personal just kind of “history” fact.
Now adressing the actual point. As a guard i had no major issues killing regen mobs at all. Either they died from ignite while i was constantly gathering crowd or i finished them with Masamune sword using 1pt SoR. Yes sometimes you encounter a complete abomination like Ancient Ancestor/Vortex Goliath/Giant Phantasm with something like Vivacious + Robust/Unyielding tanky as NM Sydo but hey if you are undergeared it is normal to skip something you cant kill simple as that. Yeah yeah i know its crazy but it works. But if you realy have this idee fixe that you must kill everything you met no matter what then the tools are there to help you with your “challenge” just have to utilize them. Namely + Anchor/Hamper weapon swap, poison+ignite/phase weapon swaps e.g. surge casters/grenade launchers you use to apply sfx and then previously mentioned Masamune sword series to dps.

I think it is absolutely reasonable to expect that as a starter char with no gear you wont be able to do or kill anything your heart desires without putting any efforts in actual grinding and getting item upgrades. You know thats pretty much the whole concept of arpg - you get the gear you do the shit.
But if you are implying that you expect to beat everything you met no matter what your gear is given you throw in enough time or corpses at the enemy i will disagree. The time of D2 corpse runs and the likes is long gone and must be kept in the past. Nor the game is oblidged in any way to hold your hand throughout whole journey in normal difficulty. There is no unbeatable content or monsters only bad builds, crap gear, lack of knowledge and poor execution.

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In addition i just want to leave this experimental video i’ve also posted on Discord yesterday. You can see aside of the 3 DE armor i wear here my gear is utter garbage, and anything you see here can be farmed from Shulgoth which is introduced earlier than this named one.

You may think Rapid is mandatory here, but the unmodded white Combustion Gun i was wearing actually did quite well without it. The reason i was picking MM for this is because based on players feedback it has the hardest time killing these early on.

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Funny thing, like I said in Discord yesterday, being locked in Rapid Fire can’t be the default play. I’m okay with them just being unkillable until one or two levels/weapons later on, but that permanent defending of choices looks bad. Can’t you guys just say “Well, thanks for your input, we’re looking into it” and then just look into it and do not make a halfhearted video showing off that you can kill that thing overleveled, with ignite and Rapid Fire? The white one would not have killed that thing alone except for lucky ignite. -.-

Keep that guy like he is, but that mentality towards everything anyone says is kinda hard. Not gonna visit the forum for a while, I think.

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the responders aren’t the developers, they can’t be looking into anything.

and i agree - low level regen monsters are too much and they’re practically unpoisonable on top of that.

i noticed the game overall needs better low level scaling of many many many things.

One thing I noticed about regeneration is that it seems to be a bit inconsistent when it comes to percentage: Spikelord heals a pretty hefty amount per second, but I’ve seen vivacious elites heal much less and my damage wasn’t exactly low enough to justify the decreased % per second (CL15 gear at level 25? Wow; I think even my green drops were stronger than the legendaries by that), which led to me having a much easier time. After Spikelord, I’ve eaten regen elites for breakfast most of the time (not on marksman because marksman is marksman, but the others) and I honestly feel like it’s either specific combinations being overtuned (Spikelord’s regen) or certain gear/classes underperforming (marksman not using the Bolters and daring pick something like the SCRAC or assault rifle #426).

In regards to guardian’s performance, it fell on the easier side to me for most of the game: Spikelord was just okay to fight in the way a named enemy should be, everything else died horribly and I’ve only met one enemy that was just downright bullshit: a vivacious febrile thunderstruck fellbore that outregenerated every gun I had, the poison didn’t last long enough for me to do anything substantial and melee was pretty much impossible because my health would be cut in half within a literal second of attacking the guy. Regen, thorns, lightning spam and fire pillars? Yeah, fuck no; I ragequit that one and I think it was a horrible experience, not only because I couldn’t even touch it, but because its damage was high enough to easily nuke a guardian. The regen affix put me on an overwhelmingly tight timer I could just not beat and the solution I used (reset instance) feels like telling someone to cover their ears when someone is being beaten nearby, which doesn’t actually make the person not be beaten and ignores the issue at hand (as in “it ignores the issue until it inevitably comes knocking again later”).

I think me finding issues with them at specific times already outlines that I don’t perceive it as an issue with the regeneration itself, but the other factors surrounding it that contribute towards making the regeneration a royal pain in the ass. Y’know, “jumping is easy and basic until you break your legs” and all that stuff. Marksman was the biggest offender unless the player used those stupid Bolters, and I make it a moral stance to not touch those things with the intent of cheesing. “Blame ye not teh regenerationth, but whateth maketh it a paine in thy arse”.

*: I almost forgot one important detail when it comes to Spikelord: the base enemy is a stun machine and it was downright frustrating to get locked over and over while trying to set up napalm, frag and rapid fire with marksman, only to be stunned the moment I entered rapid fire and wasting the burst damage while also allowing him to regenerate all the damage the napalm and frag did.

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The key word here is instantly. Wurm does an animation to heal wich you can interrupt.
You fought Wurm in British Museum dozens if not hundreds of times before yet have you never seen him doing this? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I m pretty sure he knows that so let me tell you, as a rude person, this is rude.
Nevertheless its the games job to tell you the base game mechanics, so if a player dont know that
then the game does a bad job, wich is why nowadays tutorials are so long.
But hellgate is an old game it was different back then, so i see your point.

Rude! But thats not the problem, people know what to do its just rng is not on there side sometimes and combinations appear wich are simply broken. I heard no one complaining(at least in the forums)about the litle regen mobs. Its the abominations(thriving/tough/kind of monster…) wich are the problem.

So much rudeness. You know from what he wrote that he knows all that, its simply his feedback and having some unkillable mobs early on just for the sake of difficulty is questionable at best.
And…

Thx for the work to put a video example up, love that.
That sayed, the 3 DE armor pieces gives you 41% more dmg.
You dont have that normaly with lvl 7. These regen mobs would laugh at you and use there heal skill to go back full health if it where not for these items.
You are completly right that you have a better weapon with lvl 7, but 41% more dmg makes the video a bit weak as an example.
I get your point, but again the problem are the mutants described above, at least from what i heard in the forums.

My personal take on this matter, reducing the regen a bit for lvl 1-30 wouldnt hurt but then no mercy.

Does anyone know what happend to fast mobs? I didnt see one sonic the hedgehog hunting me down.
I want them back, i miss the perma stun fast melee enemys especially when my friend is a MM trying to run away from them.

I’m extremely busy to properly chime in on this today, but a few quick notes to deescalate some conficts here.

This is a frequent take on this change, and it has been acknowledged. I can’t promise we’ll act on it in this exact way, but it’s on the table.

I’m closer to this mindset, myself. I agree with what players said on the survey that there should be more challenge and Champion affixes should matter more, and regen does achieve this.
That’s not to say it can’t be fine-tuned better, or that it won’t be. I’m just saying I agree with the mindset that the game lacks mechanical depth and regen is a minor step towards fixing that.

To be fair, we really don’t constantly defend our choices; if anything, I believe we stick to our guns less than we should. We had balance changes based on your feedback in the hotfix and in 1.5.2, exactly because we value your input and look into it.
Also, Alternalo’s take with that video is his own, and it’s his view as a player. Neither his views nor my own represent the team, and neither he nor I alone dictate the course of the game. Your feedback never goes to waste, even when we disagree with it at face value.

I definitely agree with these.

I don’t think we’ve changed affix priorities/rarities, or that affixes even have those. But I also don’t think I’ve seen(/noticed?) Fast Champions recently. Something to look into.

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Look at the last kill, you can clearly see it could be done without using rapid, and you blame ignite which is a valid gameplay mechanic to come over tanky bosses. I was even stating this under the video but it was simply ignored.

The first kill doesn’t even proc any SFX it’s just raw damage.

Yes i have 3 DE items, which could be farmed from Shulgoth, and i am also usually around lvl8-9 when i arrive here normally rather than 7, as i always do the side quests first.

The weapon could be a rare or legendary with increased damage on it, and with added ele mods which i’m sure it would make up for the 3 DE armor i’m wearing.

Some ppl even complained that hunters are all about holding left mouse and kill everything, now that you have to interact with the gameplay mechanic and use skills to come over situations like this it’s suddenly too much.

As Bryan said there were adjustments on these affixes already based on community feedback so you can’t really say we are permanently defending our choices, however these changes were internally tested by us for quite a long period of time with various classes and levels, starting from scratch to high end gear and we’ve released the patch thinking it’s fine (read: fairly challenging) as is.

Also IMO the moment you can just kill these with your auto attack the affix becomes meaningless.

3 Likes

Oh nice, do you have some tips for BM how to handle stun fields in AB especially when it is at the start?

The first kill, to me, already outlines an issue: the player farming gear from a boss at a single-digit level to kill a named enemy. While I understand the grindy nature of games like these, I think that there is an escalation to be followed where the intensity of things progresses with the player’s character: more enemies, stronger enemies, more stronger enemies while the player is slowly becoming a powerhouse to match that. I think a good example would be the blademaster, which is almost a guardian at first, then starts descending into a spiral of fast madness to the point where they’re teleporting left and right while doing pirouettes to easily take down a crowd large enough that they would be spamming and running out of power on earlier levels.

When I was leveling my marksman, I had a legendary rifle with some generously damage-oriented stats at Bloomsbury, as well as rapid fire, a frag and napalm. I didn’t have any DE items, specially not ones with damage, but the damage was sort of enough to beat the regeneration. The plan was simple, right? Napalm, frag, rapid fire, keep shooting to halt regeneration, repeat. What happened instead was me getting stunned mid-rapid fire and/or the ignite from both napalm and frag not proccing at all. Whenever I’d be close to actually doing something, it’d be ruined by something else and I’d restart the process of setting up the burst damage while praying it lined up correctly.

Or I could’ve grabbed white Bolters from the Covent Garden vendor and breeze through it with a very cheap and easy way to ignite enemies. Actually done that on engineer just keeping the inhibitor bots as a mild failsafe for the stun spam and there were no issues at all. Didn’t need rapid fire, didn’t need a frag, didn’t need napalm; just held left-click and S. The marksman can be really frustrating to play on earlier levels with the damage output from the non-strike part, or if the player is not using specific weapons that not only have a good damage, but also a good SFX.

Ironically enough, my solution was to not engage with gameplay mechanics, nor use skills, just instead grabbing a cheese weapon and making the game easy. It ends up going back to the stuff I mentioned earlier about the surrounding factors being issues, with one of these factors being weapon balance and the other being the stun husk™ as a base enemy for Spikelord. Honestly, stun and regen at that speed is really frustrating.

Try to get as much stun resistance as you can, and carry a Gyro Brace around. It’s still won’t protect you 100% of the time but you should be able to walk out of the field before you’re getting stunned again under the effect of Gyro Braces temporal buff.

For endgame, i would highly suggest taking Arcane Resolve expertise as a BM. Dreadnaught’s ring is also an option.

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Try killing them with a Guardian who’s build relies on not investing points into SoR
or Sweeping strikes, but being a tank. My 4slotted Hiveblade wasn’t doing any significant dmg
despite being 4xpoison mods. I also tried using a 3xslot ignite blade, but the ignite didn’t
happen enough and everytime i would fail to ignite, the health just popped back to full.

I actually have 2 points into SoJ, 2 in SoR, 1 on sweeping strike and 1 on hamper; they haven’t moved since I put the single point at the end of each line and I’ve had a much stronger focus on prayers, shield abilities, auras and whatever else there is - it’s the minimal point investment, pretty much. I didn’t even think about focusing on tanking or not, but found out that what I was perceiving as good damage was still allowing me to do some pretty strong tanking; I’ve held my own on an AB at my level with a marksman on the team for quite a while, pulling a nasty big crowd often and hiding behind a shield wall with a single point, spamming prayers and shield of faith. Whoever balanced the ability trees did a very good job making abilities still meaningful with little point investments, for a major part.

Guardian in specific is the class I personally consider to be the easiest to level at the start, partially due to the tanky aspect and partially due to the tanky aspect actually not being an instant “your damage sucks lol”. From what I’ve gathered on my level 28 guardian, I didn’t need to avoid spending points on certain damage-oriented things for the sake of tanking because their damage was already being enough and I was also still tanky enough. I don’t want to be that one “you’re just playing it wrong lol” asshole because it doesn’t help people understand what went wrong, but I just kinda went with the flow and only had actualy issues with one enemy in 28 levels due to a really, really unfair combination, so… I’m not sure what I could even point out as what could’ve caused your experience to have happened like this (not that you’re asking me specifically for it, anyway).

One thing I can say, though, is that oftentimes raw damage was more than enough for me to kill regen elites. Ignite and phase have always been my bread and butter, with poison being almost as unused as shock for me. Phase in special is something I personally always seek on guardian due to the decreased enemy damage.

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