On grouping and difficulty Level

First things first: i am super happy with the latest patches. They delivered more than i ever hoped for. So dont see the following as some kind of demand. I am fine and thankful with the game as it is even if development was stopped today.

Yesterday we had a short discussion about difficulty levels and grouping (and the lack of).
And the current lack of grouping in this game is kindof the beginning of a big topic leading in all kinds of directions, one of which is difficulty level.

Imho there exist a couple of reasons for not grouping currently. My shortlist:

1.) Headruns: the issue that only 1 player can pay the portal at a time and the others have to leave the instance is overly complicated.
2.) The Wild was designed as a group Level. It was originally farmed for the high elite density (and of course Dessy). But nowadays there is no incentive to clear the Wild which is a shame because of the group oriented difficulty.
3.) Abbys bosses: I was shocked when i was ordered to wait outside of the Abbys portal while a BM should handle the boss because that way it is easier.
4.) Overpowered chars handling everything on their own and rushing away from the group spoils the fun for the rest. When i see one of the rare parties and there are two blademasters in. Chances are high that i don’t want to join.

The last point is an important one with implications.It is at the same time the hardest to solve as imho perfect balance doesnt exist. There will allways be overpowered chars.
But it is also the one with the biggest impact on grouping.

The one thing that can keep overpowered chars from doing their thing on their own, is a difficulty high enough to make them dependant on their team mates and a desire to solve the content in a group.
The last point is allways adressed by increasing the loot for parties. But this doesnt really solve the issue as overpowered chars still rush away and spoil the group fun probably even more so. The group memebers are merely the loot buffers. So difficulty comes into play. If the game is hard enough to prevent the overpowered ones to handle stuff on their own and they realize that the guardian somewhere back actually can support him by healling or combining damage he will stick with him. I have seen it on runs to St Pauls.

Sounds easy to solve!? It is not. And that is because difficulty level is probably the hottest and most emotionally discussed topic in games like this because it has the potential to completely polarize the community. Some players prefer “easy mode” some a bit of a challenge and for some it cant be hard enough.

In the beginning of Hellgate it was discussed heavily and emotionaly because the game got really hard the nearer you got to Sydonai nightmare and he wasnt really killable for all types of Chars.

Now how is it in similar games and did they solve it?

In Diablo III it was a similar probably even hotter topic. There were mega shitstorms in the beginning because the game was really hard in the end. So hard you played chars like Wizards with physical shields. Diablo III solved the big shitstorm about difficulty after a few iterations. First they made the game from super hard to easymode which caused the next shitstorm. And then they finally cam up with the rift system where the player in the Endgame simply chooses the difficulty of a random map with a random boss. This immedeatly solved all shitstorms about wether the game is too hard or too easy in the endgame. It created competitions as there were leaderboards for who reached the highest rift level- they had a system of comparison. Who is the strongest solo and who is the strongest group player. And it supported player roles because in the highest rifts it turned out that other combinations of chars where more benefitial than a group of single dps chars.

Path of Exile introduced a more refined way of creating highlevel maps of “choosable” difficulty. These were dropped maps with affixes like on weapons where each affix added a certain difficulty like eg special mob density or especially mean mobs with double HP. The player could even augment those maps.

Now the question is, could such a system be envisioned for Hellgate, would it be reasonably easy to implement, would it even make sense in here and what are the flaws that must be circumvented. Or can the issues be circumvented by other means.

In short (lol) such a system would mean the possibility to spawn a random map of a choosable difficulty and some form of comparable difficulty rating. Probably refinable POE style with augments like additional elite density or even Boss(es). It could be combined with special drops that can be used to create harder and more diverse map parameters.

The current patch definitly did something on the difficulty side with Rifts, Catas and Brompton and Sydonai (all super nice changes imho). The game now actually kindof has a system of choosing the difficulty. So if the mechanical issues points 1-3 in my shortlist are being solved and the overpowered stuff (BM, Crit/Evo, Shrap) got nerfed back a bit and nothing new gets introduced (Summo ?). Then it is all good. I doubt it though because the char balance is such a difficult thing.

But a map system not only has the potential to support grouping but it also is a piece of ongoing content creation.

To be continued…

Wait… what?
-Grouping is hard because lesser player and some classes are overpowered.
-To fix that you want new content from PoE (Random generated maps with “choosable” difficulty)

I mean i like “choosable” difficulty, like sacrifice 5 beast orbs at the beginning of the instance to get risk reward, level is harder but you get more out of it.

But it would fix nothing. The hole rest of the game would still be unfixt.
Just balance the classes and good is. Yes it needs time but thats how you do it.
The problem is the lesser player base. Group based content is fine but if you cant find a group its wasted.

PS: Diablo 3 at the beginning didnt got shitstormed just because of the difficulty.
It got hated because they created the game around an RMT Action house, wich means:
-your drops are near always bad and not useful for you --> Use RMT action house
-the difficult is unfairly hard you need better gear but because of the above–> Use RMT action house
The Game sold over 30milion copys but people lost hope in blizzard after the RMT move and stopped playing. To prevent further harm they got rid of it and rebalanced the game with a terrible game philosophy:
“Just give them the loot… all of it, more loot = better”
But the damage has already been done, the expansion wich fixed near everything “only” sold nearly 5milion copys.
Sorry for the history lesson, i m still sad about it :disappointed_relieved:

Another thing.If you make the game then a lot of new players or old players that haven’t played for 10 years or so leave the server as fast as they started.Second thing is you get players like me that’s a solo player.I am currently an Engineer focusing on drone so i will be very squishy specially early game but i play this the same way as borderlands with how i move.It just depends on your play style.

I am not sayin i am pro or anything as i can assure you i am noob specially online :smiley:

PS:It’s just a simple thing.Balance the classes which will happen soon i think

I didnt say grouping is hard just because of overpowered stuff. Grouping often doesnt make sense because there are a couple of builds that can handle nearly everything on their own. I think they have been identified and they will be balanced. But that is just not everything.

And yes alot of the shitstorms were about RMT in DIablo III but also alot about the difficulty level just like in hellgate at the beginning where also other topics like the amount of content were in the discussion.

We started a discussion on discord and Bryan pointed to an example where to start balancing difficulty with Molloch. Imho the current content game doesnt need so much balancing and i wouldnt touch what people know and love so much. A map/rift system however can have a fresh start on the difficulty side of things and really comes into play AFTER most of the content is played through anyways.

My whole observation is, is that group play only really starts and is more fun when people need to actually act as a group to solve the content. And for that you need to lead the groups to their limit which is different for each group.

Eg in Catas (which probably were designed in that direction), before the patch for most players this point was reached with and after Cata 8 (where stuff was hard enough to make people not rush on headlessly). But no one played Catas 9-15 because the drops where too high of a level.

In Diablo eg people played through a couple of test rifts and then decided what is the best level for them.
They pretty quickly learned if a eg lvel 80 Rift is suitable for them or not. And it is at the limit where suddenly support Chars come into play. Where people develop different tactics etc. But honestly the tactic shouldnt be: “everyone but the BM please port out, i tell you when it is done and you can port in to loot”.

The system i am speaking of could be as easy as a random map with a choosable difficulty level from easy to super hard (eg lvl 50-60 mobs or finer grained). Or it could be a fully fleshed out map system where you bake your maps with ingredients like mob density, elite density, bosses and additonal effects like an “infested” map with Angel passge like boils and two bosses at the end etc. EG Molloch could rarely drop a black essence which could be used to add in one of the big bosses into the map.

However the reward needs to be something usefull and desirable but not deciding on the core gamplay. I would suggest some form of augmentation for your gear. Since auging is something for the endgame anyways. Augs mostly go wrong but create weird combinations which would then end up in the auction house and may even lead to new builds. Just an idea.

“The system i am speaking of could be as easy as a random map with a…”
Thats the problem it is not easy to do there is a lot of balancing and testing involved.
It is time consuming.
And once again it wouldnt fix group play. What in the end will happen is that the group player would do “rifts” and nothing else because its more rewarding wich it should because its a lot harder to do, otherwise nobody would do it. And then you see BM only groups. Why? Its faster…
The game is not made for a trinity the elite group player would rather making there BMs a lot more tanki then bring a no dps tank in to the group.
Wich means in the rest of the game there would be no more groups to find. Yes you can fix that but again, its time consuming and a lot of work for a problem wich wouldnt be fixed.
Another problem is that i can imagin, that a lot players play only solo or with a friend or two.
You would redline them out of that new content.

That said they would be a better global solution if you want a harder difficulty.
Make in the corner of the screen (when you stand in a staion) a “choose difficulty” option.
And one of them could be “inferno” (ref. from Diablo 3’s ridiculous inferno diff.) wich makes the game so hard that you need your group(wich then would be tanky BM’s. Balance not found).

Ps: “I didnt say grouping is hard just because of overpowered stuff”
No you didnt you sayed its annoying i got that.
“Grouping is hard because lesser player and some classes are overpowered.”
Lets change that to.
-Grouping is hard because lesser player. Some classes are overpowered.
Sorry if that wasnt clear, my mistake.

Thats why i suggested the map version were you farm stuff in the normal areas to create a unique map.
So that it cant be rifts only. And first of all you need to farm alot of items for your build anyways which will only drop in the normal word.

And a player that already has everything in terms of items is not going to play that much anyways at least with that char.
However if he can “achieve” a new level of a rift or gets new challenges by baking together crazy maps, he will still play but that is just the content prolonging side of it.

I bet that when you have a group of 4 BMs and a difficulty so high that they struggle, suddenly one gets the idea to change for a eg a spellcurse Evo and maybe a tank and they will get further. Thats why you dont find only dps players in Diablo Rifts. Roles only flesh out when they are needed. And that would be another sideeffect of reaching your difficulty limit. I could be wrong and it is BM>all in all situations but i also never said they should do only that instead of balancing.

I just dont think that balancing and in this case nerfing Crit Evos, BM and Shrap builds will have the desired outcome. It pisses off people that are used to awesomeness and ultimately people find other means to outplay the game. It happened so often before. Dont get me wrong there should be balancing and the devs already did a great job with weapons buffing and it will help a bit. But i dont expect wonders of it. The sumo already smells a bit op if you ask me. But that is probably too early to say.

And i also dont see that system exclusively for the elitist group of players. I for one play mostly off builds which are far from being as strong as the currently best builds. Most of the time when i reach R30 i try something new. Thats how long the content holds for me personally. But i would still like to see how far i can take it in a group and i love it when the game throws surprising spawns at me.

I am far from seeing this as the holy grail, i just think it may be a thing which could be done with a reasonable effort as it mostly reuses and recombines the content but which has multiple effects.
At least it is a concept that most newer hackn slay games utilize.

You like Rifts, got it.

I quote myself:
“That said they would be a better global solution if you want a harder difficulty.
Make in the corner of the screen (when you stand in a staion) a “choose difficulty” option.
And one of them could be “inferno” (ref. from Diablo 3’s ridiculous inferno diff.) wich makes the game so hard that you need your group(wich then would be tanky BM’s. Balance not found).”

Throw randome spawns at it or other surprises or make it an additional option, done.

I would say it is to early to discuss, i m very happy when all the bugs are fixed, mostly balanced and the game is out of beta.
Then i think is the best time to discuss what to do next.

I would love a third playthrough in eg St. Pauls difficulty. BUT it will be not for everyone but looks like everyone should do it as it is the highest game mode. People will bitch around it is too difficult and they will be right about that - i dont htink it is going to work or would be beneficial and we just got rid of normal mode.

With the rift/map however you call it system it would be integrated into the existing game better and less separating for the community. It could be part of crafting and trading and everyone can choose how far he takes it and thus use it on his individual level. It is a sidearm of the endgame. Or it could be just a epeen comparison. It would give you something usefull (augments) but nothing you can’t get elsewhere or is ultimately deciding or needs newly developed items.

I dont think it is too early too have a decent discussion if you like :wink: I am just hyped up again after the latest patches. It is really funny how often this game reemerged on my PC:

Let me quickly chime in on this, since I was mentioned too.

-Toggled difficulties will likely happen. No promises, no estimates, but it’s a real possibility.

-Grouping. This whole issue seems to have been identified and agreed on; players are too powerful for the current content, thus there is no need to party. By this I don’t mean all classes or all builds, but balancing does often come down to the practical power ceiling that can be achieved, and this is what we observe here.

My support for nerfs does stem from this predicament. Perpetually buffing enemies and players creates the very real danger of scaling errors and of widening the gap between top performers and lesser options, which does limit us in creating new content. Nerfing top performers however, in my view, would solve this more safely while still allowing for most content to be beaten solo, as well as smooth out the steep performance curve from ~lv40 onwards.

Of course opinions can wildly vary on specific solo performance ceilings and on which content should/shouldn’t be beatable solo, and that’s where many discussions find ground to flourish.

-Crit Evokers. Let me note here that, while I agree any class should have some crit available, I absolutely believe this form of the class supersedes both class design and overall reasonable design. I strongly disagree that any class should be able to either critcap or multiply their damage tenfold (both different points but I stand by both), and I do feel that one must take into account the state of the TC as a whole when analyzing this issue.

Both by design and going by the data, Ripshards were seemingly made for DF Summoners, and the Feral set itself follows this concept as well. One can argue that -power was intended for Evokers (as little as it might actually deter them from using it), but it also fell perfectly, much more so, in line with FSS limiting Summoners; add a rather clear (DF) Summoner focus in such affixes as +melee speed, +thorns, +sfx defenses, +mobility (also observed in Black Angels), +minion stats far beyond normal caps, and even +crit (considering crit was the concept of Ripshards forcing DF to work; hence the ACC +speed modifiers as well), and to me this makes sense.

I’m not arguing that Evokers shouldn’t be strong, by any means. What I’m arguing however is that it neither seems to have been their intention, nor does it make thematic sense, to reach this result this way.

-Overall balancing. There will be quite a few more waves of balancing till Beta, undoubtedly. Every patch serves as a step towards where the game is going, and wrong steps will be revoked (ie OP Summoners). There is a long way ahead until the desired balance is reached to some satisfactory level, since Hellgate is such a complex game in this regard.

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" Nerfing top performers however, in my view, would solve this more safely while still allowing for most content to be beaten solo…"

I like the idea of bringing the top performers down and bring the low performers up so they meet in the middle. This prevents power creep from happening wich is the downfall of every game.

“…most content to be beaten solo…”

I like doing all solo because if i need a group for something and i cant get one for whatever reasen, i simply stop playing. BUT grouping is important and thats why i like the idea of Toggled difficulties.
Lets say there are 3 difficulties.
-The first one: still hard but with good gear, practice and all everything is soloable(Moloch,Catas).
This lets you practice and understand how things go as well.(How to fight moloch for example)

-The second: It gets rough, you see clearly the advantages of a party.

-The third: Its party time! No hell i go solo.

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Thank you, that pretty much sums up my concern quite fairly. What critcaps and high-end novas do is quite likely the exact same powercreep that befell Hellgate Global, and quite honestly it leaves very little room for new content.
For example, designing new weapons that need to be appealing has come with this exact burden already; anything that is not +ele, CCM, or shrapnel, is secondary. If a Unique does not come with one or more of those it is immediately outclassed by any Unique or Mythic that does, and if the new does not outdo the old it is not worth farming for. So how much variety is actually left to be viable in this context, and how much further could/should the (perfectly possible) few-second bosskills be pushed?
Frankly, not much.

To be honest, I do not particularly like the idea of everything being beatable solo without any party-based encounters. Not only does it set a nearly impossible standard where every encounter needs to be beneath the inherent weaknesses of all classes (low damage of Guardians, low defense of Marksmen, etc) while also somehow being both fun and challenging (especially given how much player performance can vary), it also feels counter-productive for a game that is meant to promote party play by design. Flagship was even contemplating Raids at the time, so pushing further towards solo play feels like straying too far from the source material, in my view.

However, to be fair, between low player populations and timezones, I can see where this view comes from and where it has merit.

Toggled difficulty modes in a similar fashion to what you outlined, which actually is quite close to what Global did, may very well be a middle ground that could remedy the situation given enough care.

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Thats exactly my concern, well and i like sometimes doing stuff solo wich is why i mention Moloch and catas because thats what i did on global.

To be quite honest, i didnt understand why the evoker got so much crit and let shrapnel do single taget dmg.
The GunGuardian was back then a nice build for mass destruction to clear hordes of mobs but never was rly good against single target “normaly”(It was also unique to play and gear). Wich is fine, i love GG and i think single target or bosses should be his weakness. This also helps for grouping, if you have a GG you then can get someone who is bad at AoE but is awesome for single target.

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I’m on the solo side for this. If grouping becomes a must for most of the content, it wont work. There will be a few core teams of veterans being able to group up at any given time, leaving beginners behind.
Grouping already has a big upside from the ressources sharing aspect, or to speed up some farming.

Imagine your OP critvoker or gundian farming molloch solo. Farm a headset by yourself, run to molloch, and one shot the poor lizard. You’re happy, you have big epeen damage.
But now to do a second run you gotta start everything again from SH, where a group can reset the boss fast without having to rerun the previous areas.
Same exemple for abyss bosses. Spawning and killing them is doable solo but it takes way longer.
The group also pays a single head set for 5 times the loot, and can farm sets way faster.
PoE had the same problem years ago, where high level mapping was reserved to groups mostly, because of the cost of access.

Grouping is already a big plus for the speed at which you can farm and access the content.

BUT, if grouping means farming the “key set” with a team to then let a single guy kill the content while the rest stays outside, then it’s a problem. Maybe the mobs scale to high with more people in the area ? I dont know the way the game handles this, but if someone is part of a team, maybe the area should scale accordingly ?

It’s a tough topic for sure. Making teaming mandatory is the worst idea possible. It’s not an MMO but a niche forgotten game that never been properly finished or balanced to define what the devs wanted it to be. Clearly not enough people to keep an healthy group finding board alive and allow anyone to play the content they want, when they want.
On the other hand, even if teaming is already an upside regarding the cost and speed of access, resulting in higher loot per hour, it’s currently not a must for the success of the kills, which can be seen as a problem or not depending of everyone liking.

TL;DR: Hard to explain what i think properly this early in the morning ><

Is that intendet? If so thats quite a huge + for grouping.

And thats not good.
Having hugh dmg is fine BUT a legendary boss should not be easily defeated.
Moloch should be a boss where you say “ok now i have to concentrate for a moment” you should have a bit of respect for him.
And not say “hi lizard, bye lizard… lol noob ownd”

In Path of Exile they have a good system for such bosses.
They put the fight into phases. For example:
Moloch gets every 33% HP invulnerable and then a lot of spawn happens or a mechanic wich you have to do to make him vulnerable again.
This prevents to burst him down or make it at least that you have to time your burst for him.

And for more group oriented content you could make that moloch has a chance to drop one of 5 or so items that you need to open a portal or so and then you can fight against Uber Moloch.

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I don’t agree AT ALL that phases on a boss is the way to go ^^. It’s the reason many players skip bosses with phases. Belfry is a great map, but no one do the boss. You spend more time waiting the boss the transition between his phases than running the entire map. It is as much fun as waiting for the double Vaal to start being attackable in the Atziri map.

Molly technically has phases when spawning the healers. But with enough dmg we can burst him down before it gets to be an issue. He doesn’t get invincible for no reasons when adds are here.
Being able to destroy bosses one of the rewards and incentive to grind for gear. Yes, the boss doesn’t represent a challenge any more, but that’s because you spent time gearing for it and that’s rewarding in way.
Maybe adding Hell mode like in Global would help, with slightly higher drop rates as an incentive for people to group and try, but then we’re back to my point that if teaming is the best way to play by far, most of the players won’t bother doing so.

" If grouping becomes a must for most of the content, it wont work"

Nobody wants that. In fact i for one suggested to leave the core game more or less as is difficulty wise (so no messing around with Molloch) but just add the random map thingy and there give people soemthing to chew on.

Molloch is kindof a victim of power creep. If you do him solo in non op classes, he is alot of fun and action and there his difficulty level is ok. But since you can down him in seconds and do 5x5 runs people very much like to farm him. In the end he drops stuff which people need. It would be a pain in the ass to farm for a skill retrainer if you needed to make every run from start on (though Mollochs step can be fun) and he actually was as hard as he is solo nonshrap.
I dont know if increasing the rare drop rate and making him stronger/nerf ops helps. With Molloch it is a difficult thing. If he is not farmable people will be pissed as he drops too many essential items (and makes you go for head runs)- many variables hard to balance.

Always a good topic for debate and you will never please everyone.
If I may throw in a few thoughts…
If people want tougher there is always Hardcore- I play this mostly and endgame is still too hard for me, possibly with exception of BM.
Surely parts of a “multiplayer” server game should require team play or whats the point? There should be content playable solo if no one available but top end should be team or at least very hard/slow to do solo.
Good to see taunt getting some attention, Guardian tanks should be a given in all top end battles imo.
What is a BMs role? Always thought this class did not work- you cant have Guardian defence and high DPS in one character without it being OP. Global just reduced it to nothing and was pointless, this time it is just OP. Not sure if this can be resolved other than keeping the damage but make defence/armour much weaker- make them glass cannons.
One good thing from global was the Base Defence challenge which kept high level players scratching their heads for a long while. Could something similar be created here? Maybe use the Templar medical station map, waves of mobs(many total immunities to elements/crit etc) , a Darkan style boss with a time limited kill. You know the sort of thing, fill in details later :grin:.
I think total immunities to different attacks would also encourage team play later game as many get high damage by maxing one or two attacks.
Anyway, must getback to dayjob.
Thanks again to Omerta and the team without whom none of this would be possible.

The hardcore argument is one that pops up in this discussion all the time. But hardcore people are a totally different breed of people. They are very frustration resistant, when all your progress is destroyed by lag or other unfair means. They are able to play the same lowlevel stuff over and over again. This is a tiny group of players and definitly not for everyone.

But you hinted on alot of things that higher difficulty can provide, which is finding tactics beyond pure damage using the stuff the game gives you like eg taunts to increase aoe dmg effectiveness, having a healer for a glasscannon etc. But to play like this the game must force you to use it.

But as i said, one huge part of the game is feeling awesome because you dish out alot of dmg and mobs die left and right. This is the base and shouldnt be changed. The difficulty part should come in as a choosable addon, a sidebranch with a reward splitted into some usefull but not decisive loot (eg augments) and the means to compare to others for epeen reasons and certainly not exclusivly for groups (in Diablo the highest rift are being done by groups but surely solos do them aswell).

Base defense was actually quite cool but very limited on the other hand. Kindof the ultra condensed form of a difficulty test. Time based quests provide another means without messing around with mob difficulty too much.

Yes ! i forgot about base defense ! That’s a good exemple for when i was saying

IIRC hell defense wasn’t dropping anything exclusive but rather at a better rate than in nightmare.
That way, groups that have insane damage can be rewarded by having a better chance of getting loot, while keeping solo players or not top geared teams the possibility to access these loots.
Timed bosses or wave based area with scalable difficulty is a also a good way to keep players on the grind !
Once you reach good enough gear, yes it makes some bosses or content rather easy (which is for me a reward for the grind), but you then have the choice to throw yourself onto infinite difficulty for the fun or to push the limit of your character.
The current PoE league got it somewhat right with the emblem fights i feel. You pay the entrance, and have the exact same timer as everyone else, but you get more loot by being super powerful because you kill more stuff in during this timer.

That has not so much to do with phases but more with bad game design.
The problem here is that you have to wait for his animation to end before you can do anything.

For example:

The duo totem bosses(in PoE) is a phase boss too. You have to kill one before you kann kill the other, its a two phases boss. But the phases are instant wich make it feels right.
The problem to wait for bosses is that it interrupt your game flow. You fly through the map a second before and all of a sudden you have to stop and wait for the boss.
Its like being in a train and some one pulls the emergency stop.

Phases works also by uber elder because the fight doesnt end. You have to stop attacking for a second but you can use it to reposition or doge an attack.

But if Kitava reaches 33% hp and then says:
Kitava: “Wait! Now its time to show you my perfect micheal jackson impression!”
*trips and breakes his two skinny legs *
Kitava: “he hee!!!”

Then thats just bad game design. Why did GGG this? Well, lets say remaking 157 bosses in a very short time is a bad idea.

No. The reason for multiplayer is the same why games exist. For having fun.
It is fun to play the game with friends or even find some through party play. The idea of making content
wich requires a party came much later.
And with that the ongoing debate if its good or not. Wich always leads to 22+ long-post threads.
Players want to play the game how they like it. People like choices. Thats why you can choose a character, skills and all that.
So you can play how you want to. But if you force them to group, they didnt chose that, they might not like it. Well… and then there is some human behavior:
Elitest Group: “Oh my gosh, guys look at that Guardian over there. How can someone have such trash gear. Yeahr Karen and look at his weapon! Its only +17.263.846 and not like ours wich is +17.263.847.
Its like he is new or so. Oh my, i think he is coming over here.”
Guardian: “Hey guys, can i join?”
Elitest Group: “HAHAHAHAHAH HAHAhahahaAHHAAHahaHAHHAAHahAHAHAHAahah!!!1111!!2331!”

I agree to 100% here. My theory is that they played as a kid “Rouge-like” games and thats why they have a complet other mentality. Because “Rouge-like” is nothing else then hardcore. But the way to play is:
How far can i go? *you died * How far can i go now with my new achieved knowlage about the game?