On shrap,BM awsomeness, Evoker gear - the op stuff so to say

Since we get good discussions here lately because of the awesome patches and palyers returning why not get into the nitty gritty things of balancing.

As most people know there are some things in this game that are way too strong and need an adjust.
Nerfs most of the time dont feel cool and buff others is an option. But not in this case i think because buff others has alot of new issues. One is new op stuff will arise and powercreep.

Currently Gunguards with Shrap, BM with sword of justice, and crit evos are identified as being super strong, right?

Lets start with shrap:

First of all onhits are a super fun way to mod weapons. They give you the feel of power and making your weapon unique. Whatever happens they should still be very good. Some of them are too strong though, mostly shrap and exploding spikes but shrap the most. One is very weak which is electric discharge.

My proposal would be to nerf shrap damagewise maybe lower than rebounder rounds and give it a stun chance and a bigger aoe- sort of like a shotgun shot.

Rebounder rounds are not bad but not first choice. They shine in dense locations where they bounce of the walls. And if i remember right there is/was a geometry glitch where they do tons of dmg when they get into a mobs texture and bounce off of it. That needs to be looked at.

At the same time increase the damage of electric discharge. It should be utilized more. I like the sidewinders coming out of your gun even though most of the time they dont even hit.
A test has to be made though how good they then perform against big bosses where everything hits because of the size.

Novas seem to be ok atm and became an option because of the more densely populated areas.

Exploding spikes though seem to be second choice lately as they also do good dmg. I think they should be a good onhit as they are kindof rockets and would nerf them maybe over their procc rate and give them more aoe in return since aoe doesnt hurt so much in boss fights.

The electric bubbles have to be observed as they do good dmg when tanking and backtracking but are quiet useless when pushing. But i think they are ok.

In the end i would suggest a molloch run as gunguard with vorpals full of single typed onhits and see if any of these sort of instakills him. I mean melting is ok but obviously not in a matter of seconds.

Now evos. Problem is i am not an evoker utilizing spells. But i can count one and one together. 25% crit on a weapon and easy to get crit on every piece of gear is strong and delivers a constant crit chance value which is suitable for getting alot out of crit multipliers, way more than alternatives like increase dmg.
The set looks like it was designed with the darkform sumo and the power penalty hinted on the way they wanted to balance it. Namely by decreasing the available mana. For sumos it should limit the number of eles and for evokers the ability to cast spells. That didnt work out too well.
The question is if making this work is a way to go or nerfing the critvalues on the items and or nerfing crit multipliers.
Whats weird anyways is, that a slippi setup would result in -40% mana while the full TC set only -33%.
So i think the numbers are way too low given that people already coped with 2 slippies.
Also the slippy comes with this penalty and a Black Angel doesnt.

By using the TC set other than for Darkform it should mean imho that they will run into serious mana issues that cant ultimately be compensated for without going to extremes which would be becoming a pot junkie and getting every piece of power somewhere else eg socketing power/will mods and using drain mana. But maybe they already do that, dunno and it works out for most of them.

Maybe coreshredders should just getting its crit downed abit as 25% is such a high number or a penalty similar than slippies should be in place.

Honestly i would prefer to have a dmg armor set as i really like playing gunvokers, now that the guns got buffed more than ever. But that is just me and really niche. But in that sense i would personally prefer a nerf of the foci and increase of the mana drain on the armors.

Now my 2cents on Blademaster. I think the dmg of Sword of Justice is the biggest problem here. It simply is the one skill to go to and sadly the least fun one. It looks worse than Sword of Reckoning, it has no mobility and makes up for a dull gameplay. Thats that. But it does the most dps and has the highest hit numbers (which is good for proccs). First thing i would do is bring it at least on par with other skills. It should be worthwhile dropping in a Sword of Autority or Hamper to increase ones dmg and not being able to rely only on one skill and still have the highest output.
I think thats the source of evil and would start with that one because eg nerfing the strength dmg buff would also affect the other skills. But maybe it is not enough.

On the whole critmultiplier issue, i would just say scrap crit related caste mods alltogether.

I LOVE novas and on hit procs, and i d be really sad to see them go.
I can only speak about shrapnels as my gundian was the last thing i played. It was FAR from perfect on shrapnels mods but yes, the damage is huge. Following statements are from my personnal experience only and may not be 100% true for all builds and so on:

-Damage is big, but not consistent. Small targets, wide spread enemies or flyers were way better handled using the electric field guns (cant remember their name)
-Damage highly depends on target size, but also on the placement. Abyss is a great exemple because even if it’s not accurately represented by the geometry, i feel we’re fighting inside some weird invisible “tubes”, making shrapnels and rebounders shine as they can hit walls and ceiling, multiplying the hit number.
-Moloch hitbox must be huge as it feels like shrapnels can pierce and hit multiple times each.

Something i always wondered and couldn’t verify, is do the elemental novas (toxic, spectral, fire) hit the target they proc from ? If not maybe it would be a good idea to change that making them a viable solution for single target ?

Make shrapnel/spikes/rebounders a Hunter only option(lord knows they need some love :heart_eyes: ) and reduce overall damage if required for balance.
Make strength points reduce damage for BMs - the more armour you carry the less damage you can do. Keep guardians as they are.
Cut coreslashers crit until they become no better or worse choice than other foci.

Worst idea possible ^^
It would kill an archetype for non hunters, while not solving any issues regarding hunters ahah

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But Hunters dont get to use swords or cast spells…

shrapnel is by definition the result of exploding munitions why not make it a Hunter only option? Rebounders the same. Maybe less so on exploding spikes.
Not overly bothered as long as its nerfed from current OP state.

Shrap is op on a hunter or guardian. Limiting it to a class wouldnt solve much but decrease options and content.
Strength has been buffed for blademasters with the TC dmg, maybe they overdid it. but i still would start with sword of justice as a strength nerf would also affect all other options though i dont know how good they are apart from crosscutter and typhoon as i never really tried reckoning or authority.

You may well be right but my understanding was the op effect was caused by the ability to stick two vorpals up the mobs nose and pull the triggers at point blank range? Hunters attacking from range would have less effect? I have never used a shrapnel build so may have got this all wrong.
On reducing content/options there is also a need for class differentiation, but I see where you are coming from.

Shrapnel/spikes/rebounders:

How does it work? When they are triggert,do you do then a shrapnel nova from your char outwards OR
does the shrapnel nova “spawn” in the enemy and going outwards?
And if they do, can that “shotgun” the enemy? So all shrapnel from a single nova can hit a single enemy?
Because then i would ask if its possible to remove the “shotgun” effect, so a single nova can only hit every enemy just once.

This should fix the single target dmg without destroying the AoE effectivity.
In general should “Nova builds” be very effective against large groups, because of the AoE.
But they should be less effective against single target.

The problem with the single target dmg i believe is that flying enemys are a pain to kill.
They fly above the novas and therefore harder to kill. (If i remember correctly)
But if the nova “spawn” in the enemy and then hit it once (instead of all projectiles from the nova hit it)
You still have some of you nova dmg added to single target and flying enemys wouldnt be a problem.

Crit / CritMulty:

To build a character around crit should be possible.
But if you do your char should trade dmg against defence.
Add on every crit and crit multy a negative defence effect.
For Example:

  • +5% crit chance and -2% HP.
  • +30% crit multy and +2% damage taken.

High damage dealer should be glass canons. It is a faster play style. Enemys die faster, you die faster.
And with the negative effects the dmg would balance itself because people would trade some of the crit/critmulty against survivability.
And then you can on top of that nerf the crit multy by around 15%. That should be enough.

Shrapnel, rebounder and exploding spikes are not novas. They are onhit effects that start from ones character and then hit a target. A novas is an onhit that start from a hit mob and hits other mobs with its rays. It is unclear if they also damage the one who gets hit in the first place, probably not.

Oh i know that shrapnel and co arent the “nova” type, like you mentioned.
But i played so many different versions and mods of Hellgate that i couldnt remember what London:2038 used.
When i sayed “nova” i meant the behavior of a nova. (An explosion going in all horizontale directions outward).

That sayed, thank you for answering my question.
But then you only can rly nerf the dmg from Shrapnel/spikes/rebounders.
And if one shrapnel trigger can hit a single enemy multiple times then maybe change that so it cant.