Status Effect Strength Affixes Should Not Cost Strength

I’m going to go a little off topic, but it’s relevant because of the way different parts of the game design are tied together.

I preferred the 2007 design in which

  1. armor costs strength.
  2. melee attacks have shield overload.

Those two things complement each other because then melee characters can buy armor without reducing their damage, or ranged characters can choose to reduce their damage if they want better defenses, especially for close distance. It gave you choices that made sense.

It’s relevant here because if you do it that way, strength feeds get a more appropriate job, and then then you can make on-hit cost will.

I have the impression that

  1. people didn’t like having to buy strength on their marksmen etc. “just to wear my armor”.
  2. people didn’t like “shields being useless”.

But I think there are better ways to fix those problems than what 2038 is doing.

  1. You could reduce the strength feeds on non-templar armor, while still making affixes and other higher-armor options cost more strength.
  2. You could reduce shield overload on monster melee attacks without removing it entirely.

The way it is now, shields are boring. The way it was in 2007, shields had a more distinct and interesting role - or they could have, by adjusting the numbers better.

Im playing evo and i really dont like those little strenght things im missing. Sometimes i think if i have to invest in that sta and recently ive put like 10 points into it but turned out there is still a lot of items that require more than i have strenght. For now im gonna not use them and will see late game.

i think a bigger problem is that SFX requires too much of an investment until there are any noticeable benefits. compare to simply slapping on some damage mods and being able to go faster right away. i’m not against str requirement as long as the returns are there, but they don’t seem to be.

i believe early game needs to be rebalanced first, plus with SFX becoming capable of dealing significant damage or getting way more useful by increasing the amount of encounters it could be useful in. plus it should allow a playstyle of casting less, but more powerful abilities: no will - less mana - less abilities - abilities should be more powerful. would make even more sense considering SFX are supposed to be unstackable.

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I would agree with you Athenai;

The armor values allowed for cabalists currently are way too high, in regard to casters.

Making armor affixes cost strength again is the proper fix, and encompasses melee Dark Form spec.

I am fine with melee Dark Form having high mitigation, but the current balance allows way too much mitigation for massive AoE casters, and I have a post to be coming up soon about it. I just need to hit 50 and gain 10 ranks to prove it with screens etc. It is possible to attain more mitigation than possible with Blademaster and almost as high as Guardian, with either Cabalist. This is very wrong. It costs to do this in Templar, so much, Guardian deals zero damage, so on, while I can attain this on Cabalist with 3 easy things which do not affect dps output, 20+ minions etc. at all. Stay tuned :slight_smile:

I won’t chime in on this properly for a while. Schedule and all.

However, let me ask a basic set of questions. I see the basic arguments here are two (and correct me if I got these wrong);

  1. Classes should have affixes relevant to them assigned to their stat of choice, because
  2. off-stats hamper main stat investments.

In this trail of thought, how would off-stats on armor, or off-stat investments, be valuable? If I, as a Cabalist, can get minions, power for spells, and sfx through WILL, why should I ever need any other stat - or gear that comes with it? Surely, if WILL is my specialty already, it’s not like any stat will ever surpass it; so we’re discussing stat sacrifices for build options.
Crit builds on Cabalists requiring ACC somehow seems to be accepted as a norm, even though it clearly isn’t the faction’s design or conceptual focus. The trade-off there is sacrificing power sustainability for damage. So, disregarding how +AA/+STR on gear can cover massive amounts of STR feeds, is it desirable to have sfx also be tied to WILL? Doesn’t it seem reasonable that, if WILL gives damage through +ele, not all desirable affixes should be given through the same stat?

Similarly, why did +radius having STR feeds, even back in Global, make sense? Hunters are certainly no melee class. Yet all Strikers had massive amounts of STR, because they valued the trade. For all of Global’s faults (and presumably our own), isn’t it more healthy to assign +crit/CDB to ACC, +ele to WILL, and secondary affixes like +radius to STR, so there’s a point to these stats? Wouldn’t streamlining all boosting affixes to ACC make Strikers more powerful? And, finally, much like why Templars get less free STR, is more power than what players have now desirable or healthy?

That’s not to say that revisions are off the table. But this concept does not seem to enter the discussion, so I believe I should introduce it.


but BMs are far superior single-target damage dealers than such Cabalist setups, are they not?

That should be factually impossible. Guardians can achieve such massive DR, simply due to AoD alone, that no Cabalist should ever come close. Furthermore, the Guardian skillset offers stunningly better mitigation; from Deflection/Vengeance and Renewal, from PoH and GD, and with 2 shield refill skills, there’s absolutely no comparison.

Guardians can make their parties immortal with GD, protect them with more reliable taunts, disrupt enemy AI more consistently, and use Hamper and Denounce to increase the party’s damage. The only way Cabalists come close to this support is Brom’s, which is situational, and Ele Drain, which doesn’t increase raw damage.

Do those things really not affect damage output? If so, why aren’t all Cabalists running around with, say, Bloodshards?

I’m all for seeing your proof on this. However, please don’t assume we haven’t discussed such matters before. Going by such statements as these

I’m assuming you’re a newer player, at the very least to this version of the game. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t voice your objections and findings, but it might be more prudent to give the game some time before arriving at strong conclusions. We’re not making changes randomly and on whims; we may very well be wrong, but some driving factors may not be visible before the endgame. And we certainly don’t intend to produce such wildly wrong or unfair discrepancies as the ones you claim here.


I wanted to do some of this in another thread, but on the mitigation aspects Bryan;

Look at this screen:

I hit level 50 and this is my armor value. This is a brand new level 50, with no spectacular gear. To get this kind of mitigation on templar, requires massive investment, guardian does near zero damage as a trade-off, etc. while I am 1% DR less than my guardian, not counting AoD, and have 20+ minions + warper, etc.

My blademaster doesn’t even have this much armor, and it’s a melee class forced into close quarter combat, where i can now turn on auto-run and just stroll through maps with this much mitigation, zero threat while the minions wipe everything out as summoner. My blademaster to get 66% had to spec very defensively, forgoing massive amount of dps. For summoner, the trade off was practically nill. Additionally, the health value, again, big investment on templar, 1 point with summoner in Dark Form.

To the point;

The reason I decided to post this in this thread, rather than start a total new one is;

For your off-stats, for summoner, that should be the armor-granting foci. They should go back to strength feeds (and very high ones at that). That is the off-spec specialization, and those are what is allowing me to have the armor value shown in the screenshot. They are too powerful on massive AoE casters, or minion armies. Melee Dark Form is fine to use these, and it scales strength by the skill, so the opportunity cost should be if one wants to become as tanky as a Guardian, that’s where the costs should be.

It’s also possible with these foci to do this on evoker. There’s nothing preventing it and these foci are actually very high power damage. Without crit, I would absolutely use them on evoker.

Blademaster is also not a better single target damage dealer than a summoner with 20+ minions and a warper. I cannot solo Dawn of the Dead, or even clear the mobs as blademaster alone. Same for guardian. It could be comparable on a single target boss (blademaster), but it requires the Blademaster to go total ‘glass cannon’ where with summoner, I am trading off nearly nothing. I have now as much base DR as a guardian, and 20+ minions, + warper.

Guardians make parties immortal, but like this, I am a one-man army and immortal. A little broms, and I am just like a guardian as 20 minions smacking for heals is just the same while I can sit safely behind a wall of pets. I don’t even have to get into threat areas to have this like templar.

Why aren’t they using these things? Because a lot of players, especially in softcore, like dps above all and don’t care if they die 7x on something. Fighting abyss bosses, you have players that die and teleport back even in the double digits. That doesn’t mean it’s not imbalanced in my opinion.

*Edit: All it takes to do this is; venom armor 10, 2 bloodshards, armor perk with either cabalist.

Sorry for the edits, but I must also mention, that things like 200+ armor dreadmasks, if armor affixes costed strength again, would also be opportunity cost. So these too, lend to being able to easily hit these mitigation values. Apologies for the edits, I felt it’s relevant.

Again, you’re massively underestimating the defensive capabilities and utility of Guardians and the damage of BMs. You’re comparing two flat values and using that as a starting point, which completely misses the context ahead of “strolling through maps”.

Let’s begin here.

This is absolutely false. From the screenshot you’ve shared, you’ve made the following trades:

  • A Dreadmask helmet over Veiled Threat or Dark Visage for crit builds, or Hexer’s for Curse/minion builds. The latter alone can offer up to ~100% minion damage through augs, a ceiling which no other helmet provides.
  • An armor dye kit over Wasp (35% minion damage), Scorched (16% sfx strength), or even Black Knight for +AA.
  • A Defender’s ring over Rare/Legendary Fulcrum’s with another ~50% minion damage and personal damage.
  • Two Bloodshards over any Glyphshards with +radius, Ripshards for +crit, or Mutentacles for both added damage and sfx strengths. This is before considering Harlequins which also come with 30-50% +minion damage, or any other non-Bloodshard options like Keel Brands with +Curse duration.

So in total, assuming your Dreadmask has a modest 35% minion damage, you’ve sacrificed up to 250% potential minion damage. When 500% is considered a decent endgame goal, that’s literally half your minion damage.
Finally, Bloodshards offer poison strength and armor. Some Uniques also offer some utility, since they’re Summoner foci, but they’re worse than all other foci in all regards but those. That’s why Cabalists don’t use them, except for tank/survival-focused builds and dedicated poisoners.

How are you gauging this? I’ve managed 72% DR with all defensive options, including 12 skillpoints and all the aforementioned drawbacks. Guardians have a much higher DR ceiling, a skill that offers 80 STA, and

Neither Cabalist is as tanky as a Guardian. You can argue that minions offer relative safety, until some AoE starts decimating them or they keep dying to ignite - and setting you on fire too, which hurts more the higher your hp is.
You might still argue that minions offer practical protection while the class still deals damage, but that’s another design trade that Guardians make. No Cabalist offers the above or other aforementioned assets to parties, because Guardians don’t deal as much damage.

Yet minion classes solo Dessy, and Summoners specifically solo Dawn, yes. That’s not because of the reasons you’re highlighting, and the simple proof for that lies in that nobody uses Bloodshards to solo Dawn. Or rather, they don’t need to, as they can manage it without them. It’s not an issue of DR, but of class design and efficiency.
It’s fine if you want to contest this performance, but it doesn’t hinge on the subject at hand.

Summoners can go as “glass cannon” as they want, and they’ll still never match BMs in damage. It’s an entirely different discussion to whether a class can solo content; I’m discussing what each class is designed to do, and how far it can push that design. BMs built toward damage will always outclass Summoners built toward damage, and that’s because of the inherent defensive perks the latter get.

Finally, since we’ve derailed the point of the thread quite a bit, kindly allow me to repeat this:

Bloodshards got armor values a long time ago, and the feed changes from STR to STA haven’t really changed their overall performance either. I understand you may wish to discuss the concept, and that’s fine, but it’s probably productive to consider why this subject has never seen such strong opinions as yours. A flat DR value doesn’t tell the whole story, and that Templars remain popular and effective should be sufficient proof of that.


I haven’t sacrificed really anything yet, I just turned 50.

I will be able to find better dreadmask, etc. with minion damage and so on. I tried, but the one I had with 40% fail augged :frowning:

Here’s another screen, just putting on a borrowed Fulcrum ring;

71%, 2775 armor. This is insane.

My ring and stuff is junk yeah, most of the gear is.

Armor itself is an opportunity cost in Hellgate. The guardian again, kinda is a walking pile of armor and so on, it needs to be handled with care as it’s essentially the only stat in the game that reduces all damage. It’s incredibly powerful, and an entire class is pretty much designed around stacking it as it’s ‘thing’.

Yes, Guardians have a much higher ceiling, but they deal zero damage. They have a massive trade-off for how tank they get. I am honestly walking through the Liverpool zones etc. that they struggled in effortlessly. On the 80 Stamina; I have 250+ stamina on my guardian, 8/8 that perk the works, and have 3.4k hp. As you see in that new pic, I have 2895, and over a 100+ atts unspent. My templars, none. I’m not done liverpool, so I could easily surpass my guardians health values as well. My guardian is decked out in top gear, this thing is just turned 50 in average at best gear. Guardian auras also, in 1v1 boss types, don’t add all that much, so the armor value really is comparable to a guardian in a lot of cases, some the highest threat cases.

For AoE’s etc. with this much mitigation, you can just walk casting broms. That’s honeslty all you need to do. Damage is so reduced, that’s plenty of healing, enough that I am kept 100% tip top. I can make vids of this etc. it’s really easy. I walked through shoreditch, filled with rift-type lost souls just casting broms while they’d fly into me, the whole map. Elemental drain on top have like 5k status defenses, the works.

For parties, I honestly don’t even need one. I’m my own tank and dps. Really all there is to say there.

Summoners might not be able to go as full on dps as blademaster sure, but to do that with Blademaster, have you seen the videos? They have barely 1k hp and zero defense. They are 100% glass cannon.

Finally, this is a big point;

How would I play an actual melee dark from summoner with these things all costing willpower now?

You can see in my screens, I have 220+ will feed, and my mods are all strength requirements too, even a strength relic. This is akin to asking a templar to have this much willpower to melee, which just wouldn’t happen. I’m not sure how I’d actually build a ‘real’ melee Dark Form as is.

*On a point of usage, again players in this game primarily seem to care about dps, and dps only. That’s all fine, but dying on something 20 times is not a success to me, nor make the imbalance less relevant. There is also hardcore mode, and I cannot imagine there being any other way to build (optimally) with options like this being so easily accessible. Why would you ever not use these in hardcore as they are?

You sacrifice potential damage by resorting to this setup. If you wish to compare a defensive setup like that to a damage-oriented one, the way you highlighted for BMs, that’s the trade you’re making. You’ll have this DR value, and deal half the damage of other setups.

I’ve addressed this many times. It doesn’t seem like you’ll agree on this point, so I won’t raise it again.

And also much lower DR, as you’ve admitted yourself, and no other defensive assets like the ones I’ve brought up before.

This is exactly the case with Brom’s as well, when PoH functions identically in all scenarios and GD is equally independent. As are SoF/SW, Hamper, and Denounce. Deflection is phenomenal in 1v1 boss encounters that require it too, and there’s absolutely no way any Cabalist with any DR can facetank, say, Dreadnaught, just because they lack Deflection.

Until you get shocked. Which, to be fair, is also the case with PoH, and poison blocks Renewal. However, GD’s armor bonus doesn’t get blocked, and SoF/SW help prevent sfx along with the Seraph pieces’ massive shields.

Which, again, exemplifies that the class is good at solo play. That’s literally its design, considering how the 3 Demons cover the 3 main MMO roles and Elementals provide bodies.
Guardians are not designed to be as potent at playing solo, because they’re mostly designed as dedicated tanks with party support assets. There’s no point in this comparison, otherwise I could also compare the lone Nova to, say, the Engineers’ massive Strikes.

You don’t need one, but you can benefit from one and they can benefit from you. If you’d like to play solo that’s perfectly fine, and the class is frankly designed for this. But party play is always more efficient, no matter how powerful a player is.

And that’s the point. BMs are glass cannons, and thus trade defense for damage. A melee, crit-based glass cannon class couldn’t possibly match a minion class in solo play convenience. However, I argue that Cabalists reaching BMs’ DR values is irrelevant if they don’t get to outshine them at their actual role. BMs will always be better at single-target damage, while Summoners (in this example) can never match them in their role - no matter how much DR they get or sacrifice.

You can’t build a “real” melee Darkform build, because it’s a single tree that literally doesn’t belong to the class. You can build with a focus around it, but your entire skillset is that of a Cabalist - and requires WILL. We really can’t base such decisions on desires to ignore 2/3 tabs of a class skillset, in the same way as we can’t base Hunter changes exclusively on Bladesaw builds.

Unless we actually made sfx affixes cost WILL, in which case sfx Templar builds would need as much WILL.

If trading damage for DR works, to the point where soloing Dawn doesn’t require Bloodshards, that sounds reasonable.

That’s actually true, and that’s been a part of why we made Bloodshards as we did. But I assume that’s also desirable, and seeing how HCE players do prefer them I consider that a success; those who value DR build around it, and the others don’t.


I wonder how it would be more balanced if we turn WILL feeds to STR while you claim the melee build is OP now as is.
I mean STR is “free” feed cost for melee builds, so turning WILL feeds to STR would remove the need of investment on a non desirable stat, which would make you get high armor values AND damage.

Also, please try to craft a ring you’re wearing. It’s not as easy to get, as you think. And is that Ironbound Valley, you are wearing? Those are some very rare drops from Dessi. The dye kit from Molly.

So to get all this you have to grind 3 different bosses from 3 different locations for quite long, ofc you can buy most of the stuff from ah or handed over by a friend, but someone somewhere spent a lot of time to get those items.

I am not a melee build that’s the problem.

This should be restricted to melee builds, this level of defense.

This is kind of my argument. I am a caster, with the defense level of a Guardian, let alone there is also Blademaster, but there’s no way a Blademaster is hitting these levels of DR, without giving up everything.

Rare drops from Dessicator… that summoner can solo. It’s a target-farmable item.
I can just farm them until I don’t want to.

People give the cold steel dye away in chat. That’s actually how I have it.

I am not proposing just turning Str feed mods into will, but also turning Will feed items back into Str.

So that high defense is with the melee builds, and giant AoE casters, are squishy as should be.

None of this is final.

The dye will be the minion one. The 62 armor is kind of irrelevant, I just like the color for now.

The ‘cost’ of this, is just venom armor, the 2 foci, and armor perk really. That is about 90% of the DR value. I take all this off, I don’t even have 1k armor.

This rivals my guardians DR. In full order gear, it’s 69%. In full defender, 73-74%.

All those defensive assets, can easily be exchanged for 20+ minons and the warper.

On broms, this heals through poison also, unlike guardian. I’m actually stronger as sumi with this level of DR in poison instances. HP still stays full.

For status effects, I would trade all that guardian stuff for the minions, as I’m barely every proc’d at all, and have ele drain + base sfx values, I have way higher sfx defense than my guardian. Even if it were to 10/10 aura of the elements, a 105% increase to even just the sfx defense perk would be more.

It’s not that is’ good at solo, its that I’m now taking zero damage as a caster class with immense dps.

BM is not entirely a glass cannon; I have 3377 hp on mine, and 66% DR.
That is enough to stand in Moloch’s slam, solo Talox, etc. just fine. I did however, have to give up tons of damage to do it. That’s why having this much on summoner, is even crazier. I have an army to do way more damage overall. I don’t have to get in melee, I don’t have to chase anything down, just stand there and watch the warper obliterate. I can get some videos easily, showing that a summoner will take out a boss faster using my own characters, and moloch or whoever as a test dummy. You actually have to play those classes, and can’t dps all the time. Like Moloch will slam and stun (or kill if you’re glass dps) while I can just stand with summoner and dps the entire time.

For the Melee, the bloodshards etc. are also the fringe items. Yes, most of the cabal stuff is will, but with these all will aligned too, I can have cake and eat it. I can’t even reach things to melee them to spawn a few guys, before the rest of the eles/warper kills everything.

Templars won’t need will, as like the other poster said, it’s the last thing they go for. Cabals are the elemental masters. It might at least make use of matched blades now though, it’s a one-pointer essentially being willpower currently.

On the HC, it’s good they’re being used, but is it not bad that’s pretty much all you would use?

Hellgate is an old game. The mechanics are relatively simple, and this is all as much a problem due to how armor truly is the only thing in the game that reduces damage, so yes, it’s very much ‘king’.

I"m not going to argue more, but pretty much everyone that is playing is aware of this stuff, and I’m just gunna roll with it I guess. I will be the walking god. I see absolutely zero reason to continue playing my Templars compared to this for certain. It’s no different than when Guardian had shrapnel. Everyone played guardian because it was impossible to kill, and had more than enough dps for everything.

I’m aware. You brought up these stats and claimed there’s no sacrifice for them, and I compared them to the sacrifice you’ll be making if you keep those items to maintain these stats.

So 12 skillpoints and suboptimal foci that don’t help deal damage.

Without AoD.

In terms of solo play, yes, because they’re different classes with different designs. Guardians bring unquestionably useful benefits to parties that Summoners don’t.

And SoF/SW can help prevent poison, while GD’s and AoD’s armor bonuses remain.

I have suggested modifying Salvation to be a % bonus instead of a flat value, if that’s any consolation.

You don’t get zero damage, as Dreadnaught can still oneshot you (as well as Guardians, true). You get little damage because you’re a minion class, much like Engineers, but there are still threats beyond the maps you’re exploring. And you don’t have immense dps; you have enough combined mitigation and dps to solo most content, but you’re neither the best AoE damage dealer nor the best single-target damage dealer. And as you insist on using Bloodshards you’re sacrificing more of it.

Exactly how you do with Summoners. The difference being, Summoners are designed to be good at solo play, and BMs are less so. You’re comparing unequal things.

You don’t. Summoners are by no means the best dps class, unless you’re again comparing to solo BMs.

And neither can you with Summoners. Minions depend on AI and get stunlocked, ignited, and killed often. The Warper choosing to not attack or warp around decreases damage uptime, unlike players who decide exactly where their damage goes.

I specifically said they’d need WILL if we changed sfx strengths to WILL, which is the original subject of this thread. Templars do have an affinity for sfx, given sfx multipliers in their skillsets, so it’d be the same thing for them as it now is for Cabalists.

They can still use offensive foci, as some do. I think it’s as bad that they’re the best foci for DR as it is that Glyphshards are the best for AoE - each foci serves its purpose.

That’s your call to make. Guardians have unique assets and are great tanks, and BMs are better bosskillers in groups. If you’d rather solo slowly and inefficiently that’s entirely up to you, but Templars seem to have enough going for them to be popular and viable.


@gr00grams I will translate, summoner should be way less tanky. Other aspects are already considered as example 1.5 nerfed the elementals by reducing there dmg by 83%! We are going there one step after another, it should still be the solo class for beginner. Its not a 100 man developer team pls consider that.

Are there plans to do something about that, i rly want to play a melee demon with a witch doctor and venom amor who doesnt depend on minions. BTW witch doctor doing vodoo maybe he cast broms and spectral curse as a buff/aura skill in change that you cant have elementals. That would help Melee a lot.
Just a thought.

Me dont understand me stupid. Is that what you have in mind or what you dont want?
Because This is exaclty what we were talking about, that this where better.

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There are, yes. That said, it’s a very tedious process. The class has many shortcomings in terms of minion customizability and minion affixes, so any abrupt or strong changes we make to specifically cater to DF would not be future-proof.
If only DF simply locked out Elementals, eh? Then we’d have a much easier time balancing this vast skillset. But no, I’m not suggesting that just yet; it’d likely be way too radical at the moment.

I’m sure it’s more about my phrasing, as I’m completely burnt out today. I doubt I’m being as clear as usual.

What I meant there was that I find sfx to be a secondary affix like +radius (in the sense that it either competes with raw damage builds or augments them meaningfully), so I believe that it having STR feeds makes practical sense. Not thematic sense, I agree, but it being reverted to WILL would also pose the same problem for other classes that also have an affinity for sfx.
Finally, if we’re to accept that sfx feeds will always be of less use to one class or another, I do prefer STR conceptually because it provides no other benefits for most classes - much like Global’s Strikers stacked STR. I’d rather have them come with a literal cost than have them streamlined with +ele mods and provide regen, OR have them provide hp that everyone benefits from.

I’m not saying this is the end-all be-all concept, mind you. I’m only saying that I find this more reasonable in terms of building, if raw damage and sfx builds are to be competitors toward variety.
It’s not like it’s set in stone though, just because I happen to like it. It’s a very easy change to revert, and we do follow reasonable feedback carefully.


With minion snap shot, you can get all the skills to max.
That’s something that was also in Path of Exile with Summons and they fixed it, it was broke.

Where you are able to cast minions boosted, then swap to a ‘real’ fighting set.
Doing this allows you take max all skills.

At any rate I didn’t want to keep this going but I’m going to try some Laconic phrase;

Repeatedly its been said this was redesigned to be good at solo.

That directly translates to: it’s better than the others. It doesn’t have weaknesses they do.

Same as guardian was with shrapnel. Same as Blademaster was with SoJ. All nerf hammered.

If melee/mitigation focused items and affixes were requiring strength that would mostly fix it up. It would lock out most elementals, as by speccing strength so much, you wouldn’t have the powerpool to use.

FSS made Diablo 1/2, they did kinda knew what they were doing. The layout in alpha from the test center wasn’t 100% perfect, but it was incomplete as they shut down. It could have been tweaked yes, but giving such defense to casters/will just mades casters too strong. These affixes moving back to strength, fixes most of it. If you need 200+ strength to melee DF, you wouldn’t have the pool for 20+ minions.

Yes, they could then spec more will as a single stat that covers what they need, like has been said, but then they can’t have thousands of hp, massive armor values etc. also. So there is absolutely trade offs, even if a single stat is mostly what classes want to focus on as was originally.

For if melee DF can be good; I solo’d talox with one in alpha that just used the witch doctor. I went all in on Strength, so didn’t have the power to use elementals etc. at all. Same as what you’d do with blademaster, but again, was stronger then too, as both the doctor and broms heal through poison which is superior to templar restoration. I only had to stop it because the animation cancel was RSI inducing.

Armor, defense, etc. is opportunity cost, build etc. in Hellgate.

Anyway, same as guardian with shrapnel, SoJ etc. it is now.

If they were both deemed too strong, because it allowed xyz, I would like to know why it’s ok on summoner, but not them. What makes it so different or special, that it’s ok for them.

*To make clear: I am not angry or mad, I like all the classes very much, but there is a clear discrepancy.

This was my idea! I mentioned this at least three times already in the forum! Nobody listens to me :sob:
But yea its a radical change wich should be ask to the community.

I see different problem with sfx, its too hard to play with in endgame.
My ingite/poison summoner wich is focused in it, could do everything perfect up to lvl 50 rank10 THEN
i was with my quest at the point that i had to go to st. paul station and kill syd.
The way to the station… the enemies begun to became ressistant.
And hell the sins they where near immune, sometimes i got poison but ignite was near nonexistant.

I have around 800 poison-/ignite-str. On my gear i have near 140% elemental-str and swarm has i belief 260%, 5 fire/toxic elementals aswell.
Hell sins bosse… destroyer of hopes and dreams.

Idk, SH is maybe fine? But when mobs get 8 lvl higher then you, they get so ressistant that i cant recommend an elemental-sfx build anymore.

i’ve heard Nightmare St Paul’s is a bad place to judge a build’s strength. they say it was meant to be an impenetrable wall for players as the developers worked on new content.

This is becoming a very tiring and unproductive discussion, outside of it not being the topic of this thread. So.

You’re a dedicated individual, which I respect. You stick to your opinions, which I can also respect. But when you simply refuse to accept a single point beyond your view, it really raises questions. I’ll be similarly laconic, then, and simply point out the most glaring issues with your argumentation. Hopefully, if you still refuse to accept that maybe, just maybe, you may be misjudging situations or missing contexts, we can at least agree to disagree.

I never said it was redesigned to be good at solo. I said it was designed, by FSS, to be good at solo. FSS tried to make the class less solo-capable, which ended up making it horseshit. Engineers going minionless is a similar testament to how minion designs are extremely hard to balance, and, frankly, letting minion classes solo content slowly (like how Engineers solo Dessy) seems to be an acceptable compromise.

And so were Summoners, to the point where they’re better than nobody at nothing except for being more solo-capable - jacks of all trades and all.
Still, discussing their performance is a fine topic of discussion. But here we keep juggling among sfx, armor, DR, solo and party play, and don’t stick to that specific topic.

It wouldn’t, but you keep arguing for this position without second-guessing it. Even if we made Bloodshards fully STR-based, which would be astoundingly odd for Cabalists (and no other weapons for any faction do this, including Bladesaws), we’d still be discussing 100 STR at worst if we mirror regular foci feeds. With +AA on gear alone, you’re probably looking at 30-50 STR, which is nothing in the grand scheme of things. 60-100 less power is not what will prevent Summoners from performing this well.

We’re very well aware. Please don’t resort to FSS to back up such claims, because they had left mod feeds (the subject of this thread) to be of any stat. The TC was incomplete, as you say, and they hadn’t locked sfx into WILL.

It doesn’t, but you insist on this based on a single flat value. Evokers don’t use them, Summoners don’t need to use them. They’re literally armor sticks for HCE. It should at some point occur to you that maybe what the majority does with and without them is an indication that no, casters are not too strong in this regard.

Exactly what I’ve argued for in terms of sfx then. A useful affix being locked behind an off-stat, so actual trade-offs can happen.
The difference between the two is simply practical; sfx builds rival damage builds, so I think they shouldn’t use the same stats, while Bloodshards’ DR is inconsequential.

Templar Restoration also bypasses poison.

Summoners being too strong is not the point of this thread, and they’re not too strong because of Bloodshards. They’re not even too strong, considering they’re solo-capable but don’t overshadow anyone at any role.

It’s okay in my books because they’re a minion class that finally serves a purpose, while not outshining anyone else. Again, Engineers also solo Dessy, but I see there’s little argument over that.

Shrapnel Guardians were too good; an immortal tank class actually surpassed single-target damage dealers, which Summoners don’t do. Furthermore, we didn’t even deliberately nerf shrapnel; we fixed a bug with its penetration.
SoJ was too good at what it did, and it provided a massive damage ceiling that we found unhealthy. Nerfing it didn’t make BMs unable to solo as well as Summoners; it’s their design that does this. Nerfing SoJ still left BMs as incredibly efficient damage dealers.

Finally, we nerfed Summoners many times since the initial buffs, and we might do so again if the need arises. I specifically disagree that being able to solo content is the factor that should dictate future nerfs, because I find it to be harmless in this context.
Please don’t assume we have class biases, it only makes you look like you argue in bad faith. Our only job here is to improve the game and satisfy players, even if I specifically disagree with your outlook on this specific subject. I wouldn’t have engaged at all if we just did what we liked and only wanted to satisfy our own tastes.


I’m not going to argue anymore, It’s your guys’ game, and I’d rather make friends than enemies, and I’m extremely appreciative you’ve brought it back, so I just want to end on that. I’m very grateful and appreciative of the efforts you guys have done, it’s your game, do as you see best, and I will play it.

Thank you.

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