Summoner - a gimp Blademaster or a gimp Engineer

Been playing around with classes and the Summoner is a struggle to make it work.

1 - If you go the Dark Form build, you have to pay 150-200k Paladium to play a subpar Blademaster who does not have splash damage on normal melee strikes while Blademaster does have splash damage it gets from swords.

2 - If you go Minion/Elemental build, you have elementals that die in 1 hit while Engineer Bots are invulnerable. Drone has the tankyness of Carnagor and the damage of the Warper.

3 - If you make a Gun oriented Summoner…well, Cabalist guns suck :
a - The projectiles fly weird directions making it unreliable OR
b - you have to wait a couple of seconds to start doing damage after you have fired the gun
c - the damage always suck in comparison to Hunter/Templar guns (AND THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM)

How to fix it :
1.1 - Make Dark Form available and open without Heart of Talox. Block some other skill instead.
1.2 - Give us Splash Damage focus

2.1 - Make Elementals invulnerable like Bots but limit the amount of Elementals the player can summon

3.1 - Make Cabalist gun projectiles fly straight so they are more reliable
3.2 - Make Dart 1 Handed Gun projectiles explode on impact
3.3 - KEEP THE DAMAGE LOW AS IT IS, this classes should not be better shooters than Hunters/Templars.

These changes would boost the Summoner to be DECENT to play because right now Summoner is just bad.

3 Likes

There’s a good way to make summon elementals build better.
To summon one type of all elementals by one button. It could make summoning build to damage dealing build. It is already introduced in hellgate : global and works just fine.

The Summoner class is generally in a bad shape, there’s no questioning it.
I’ve covered this myself across a few pieces, so let me begin by establishing that I agree there’s a problem.

While that’s not wrong, I would never like to start comparing DFs to BMs. The two have entirely different designs, so they’d never have the same performance through the same means.
So for instance

is not a suggestion I can agree with. Summoners are a minion-based Cabalist class, so pushing them in the direction of melee autoattacks (further than for summoning Dark Minions) does not appeal to me.
On the other hand, introducing +minion stat dependencies (say, have +minion stats affect DF in some way and/or vice versa), and/or buffing Offering so that it provides AoE (as a substitute to splash), and/or adding the Toxic tree so that DF can tank (through Venom Armor and Brom’s)… That’s the direction I’d rather see.

All just personal tastes and takes, of course.

While I’m inclined to disagree on the damage comparison, as the Warper deals astounding damage, I otherwise agree. Engineers do present a better minion-based class template, if only on the grounds of sustainability and utility. A cost-free minion heal is also much more practical than Blood Link.

Most Cabalist guns are odd and weak, indeed. Adding a “cabalistic” flavor weakened most of them in terms of performance.
Still though, Baneblasters(/Effluviators) and a few other straightforward guns do exist for the aspiring gunslingers. They’re not ideal by any means, and they’re lackluster by endgame standards (save for shrapnel guns), but they’re there for what it’s worth.

The skill token system seems to be both impractical (since it’s blocking low-level skills as well) and highly disliked. So yeah, it’s probably going to be removed.

Making them sturdy is definitely the way to go, but making them invulnerable is controversial. See here, for instance: 2038 Class Feedback: Summoner

As for reducing their numbers, I do personally agree.

This is also a very popular option, and it is being considered for when class changes begin.

For the sake of the discussion, it’s worth noting that both the TC in general and DF itself were… turbulent and incomplete. I’ve tried covering the former here and here, and the latter here.
There’s definitely work to be done, and work will be done. It’s exactly how this will be addressed that’s the issue though, and that’s why such threads are mighty useful :slight_smile:

@Bryan “introducing +minion stat dependencies (say, have +minion stats affect DF in some way and/or vice versa), and/or buffing Offering so that it provides AoE (as a substitute to splash), and/or adding the Toxic tree so that DF can tank (through Venom Armor and Brom’s)… That’s the direction I’d rather see.”

Giving the summoner a splash damage for DF melee autoattack does not stop developers from further developing your idea. Plus I would guess mine is easier to implement.

It might well be easier, for sure. And neither route would prevent others either.

I’m not arguing against that idea on those grounds though; I dislike it conceptually, as to me it would bypass the existing design and push the class further down the melee road, strictly in terms of “melee=damage” with no design consistency or strings attached.
At the very least Global’s Swarm fit that role thematically, so that I’d never object to.

Frankly I dislike the current barebones version of DF we have in our hands. It only fits with a few existing skills, and introduces a totally different direction to the one the class had taken.
So while I would like to see it get a damage buff, and/or a defense buff that could push it into an actual functional role, and even AoE (which the class lacks terribly), I’d rather see it done in more elaborate ways that tie the two worlds together.

I know this thread is a bit older, but I’ll just throw out my experience: I was trying to build a elemental-heavy summoner. I thought eh, let’s try a blademaster for fun… instantly better. In every single way. I haven’t touched my summoner since. There’s literally no reason. I really want to, but it’s just not worth it.

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