The CCM question

Disclaimer: This is NOT an official feedback thread. This is a personal concern, and it’s only my personal wish to see the views of fellow players on it.

I was intending to go in depth on this issue, as it’s been a great concern of mine for a while. However, I figured the best route would be to simplify the argument and have a poll on it instead.

The CCM question seems to boil down to what Global arguably perfected, and Flagship had arguably resisted; the pure crit route. The existence of CCM allowed many/most classes to reach such numbers as 80%+ crit chance or even practically achieve the crit chance hard cap, which in turn caused new content (ie Hell mode, Tokyo/Base Defense etc) to be designed around the performance of crit builds. In turn, this arguably invalidated non-crit builds further.

So the question becomes, where should CCM be?

  • It should be boosted, so that all classes have a roughly equal opportunity towards crit builds, producing a healthier gamestate.
  • It should be left as it is, as the current numbers already create a healthy gamestate.
  • It should be removed, so that crit builds may at best achieve ~50-60% crit, producing a healthier gamestate.

0 voters

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None of the answers above suit what i think so i’ll got with other :
Crit chance isn’t the problem in my mind but more crit damage. My evo doesn’t use any CCM so im at roughly 40% crit with mid tier gear. My CDB however is at 800% versus everything. Again, i’m FAR from well geared.
I didn’t want to go crit but when i see how easy it was to have 40% chance to do NINE times the damage it was a no brainer.
High crit chance wouldn t be an issue with lower CDB i feel. High crit chance result in consistency which feels great for crit builds but the damage it currently provides is way too big.

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I wouldn’t want to answer to that question in that way. I’d like to see a more leveled damage spread throughout the classes , but i imagine that is a quite big topic for itself.

At the moment, my 40% crit evoker with 650CDB, a few feral pieces and okay-good mods in the weapons does still less dmg than a fresh lvl50 BM, with 150 statpoints left, only skilled whirlwind and soj and not even the swords nano’d up to max iLvL. [but i have to say, that the BM cause of that feels better than global]

I’d like to see a lot of “gamechangers” changed to pan out the class damage to one comparable level even if that makes the endgame harder or simpler but class choices more redundant.

It definitely needs to be boosted, but with that some game changes will need to be made as well. For example, lastly nerfing the coreshredders. Having 30% cc with 600% cdb on lvl9 is ridiculous. We may have a chat about balancing the classes and gear as another topic any time.

On topic, boosting the ccm value would be a first huge step towards balancing undoubtedly.

Why does it need to be boosted?

It should be boosted, so that all classes have a roughly equal opportunity towards crit builds, producing a healthier gamestate.

I think that vote option text says it all.
At the moment, DD classes are at this stage (as it seems to me): imbalanced BM that does insane amount damage, a bit underperforming (imo) Evoker that does ok-ish damage solo and kinda sad damage in full party even using [claws that need to be nerfed] and really underperforming MM that is forced to go for shrapnel builds cause it’s crit build is being a huge disappointment.

Having CCM boosted would allow Evokers to do more damage in parties, MM will be able to crit cap, therefore providing good damage as well.

I suggested a possible solution for Hunters’ problem without a need of boosting CCM, though.

For me it is always about balance. If CC is the only route to success- fail. If CC is no use at all - fail. The state of perfection is for every skill/option to be a equally good choice. You should have heavy damage options via either raw power(no cc), lower power+cc/ccm, elemental effects damaging/weakening mobs or a combination of these but not all maxed at once in one player imo.
Very difficult to get the balance right as the past has shown. Are certain options poor because of the game or because of the player is another interesting thought?
Higher damage must come at the cost of weaker defence ofc.

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I am currently playing a r14 MM and getting enough crit is kinda hard. How much CC can you get as a (Non Sniper) MM:

1 inherent
7 from skill
4 from perk
3 duellos
2 sues
2 Maverick (1 Somberg)
=19
3 from Weapon affix
2 from Modslots for a two handed
=24

How high can you get with CCM currently? I don’t think very far. The max non cast Multiplier is 10%, for caste it is 40%:
How many of these fit on lets say a hus? In a near perfect world 4 (3 from mods, including a 2% crit 10% ccm (!) and one as an aug) in a normal world probably 2. Thats roughly 10% additional crit per CCM-Caste and a bit more than 2% crit for a CCM. So in the perfect scenario you end up with around 64% crit against a caste and 34% against all right (probabyl not)? In the normal one you have 44%/29%.

I dont think it is too much. And i assume a more dmg oriented build doesnt fall too far behind and is more flexible when it comes to armor pieces. Crit for the MM is beneficial only very late game anyways. Imho it is just fine when talking MM atm. It seems still to be the strongest route but by a lesser margin.

For the evo i dont know. When i see the Feral set then i think it is overdone.

To be fair, a massive part of the MM issue is that they were arguably intended to use the Sniper tree for crit builds by design. With Master Sniper it becomes
19+10 base for Hu’s, times ~2.4 (3x~30 CCM mods + ~50 CCM aug) = 69.6, or
22+10 base (assuming an Avenger’s aug) times 2.4 = 76,8, and
19+10 base for Magnums, times ~3.3 (6x~30 CCM mods + ~50 CCM aug) = 95,7, or
22+10 base (assuming an Avenger’s aug) times 3.3 = 105,6.

Without it, things look worse. Hu’s are capped at 19x2.4= 45.6 without Avenger’s, and at 52.8 with it. Magnums are capped at 62.7 without Avenger’s, and at 72.6 with it.

In my humble view, the latter numbers are fine for crit builds. If anything, I find 72.6 to be too high as it is. It is only in the context of other classes reaching higher numbers, and bosses being subsequently designed around critcapped performance, that I feel this becomes an issue.
Well, that and other core numbers such as base gun/sword/foci damage, skill multipliers, and so forth… But let’s stay on topic and stick to the crit/CCM front for the time being :stuck_out_tongue:

I think they should be working as Crit MM without Sniper. At least they have two skills for crit to put points into that are not part of the Sniper Tree. And Sniper is fun … for a while but that is just me.

These figures you use here are Caste Multipliers right?
Maybe just ditch the caste Multiplier alltogether. I personally never liked the whole caste stuff. It felt like cheating to have a weapon specially designed for the boss which does, tons of additional damage.

That’s the thought I’ve been having for a while. Caste CCM itself seems to be what enables crit builds in their critcapping HG form, whereas removing it would bring them down to realistic numbers in the 50-60% range. That, in turn, would make ACC investments less efficient by comparison, leaving room for innovation instead of “cover feeds/pump ACC/critcap”.

I fear that the process that led to Global’s form was as such:

Critcapping performs X, while alternatives perform Y and Z. X > Y and Z in terms of damage, of course.
Since X is possible, future content (ie Global’s Hell mode) is based on X performance.
Since new content now requires X+ performance, X is further encouraged, and Y and Z are further invalidated.

After all, the need for the damage output of critcapping builds is only defined by the boss encounters they’re framed with. If X is no longer possible, bosses can be scaled down to the performance of Y or Z. Not unlike the case of Base Defense and the Global Engineers’ Strikes; the former was designed based on the performance of the latter, and the latter isn’t needed if the former’s standards aren’t there to make it necessary.

I’m relatively new, but my input would be that Guardians, Engies and Summoners shouldn’t achieve more than 30% critchance or around that. Their main purpose is utility, healing and tanking after all.
The other 3 damage dealing classes (Marksman, Blademaster, Evoker) should be re-worked so that they each have their own crit caps.

Marksman could reach 55% (and get to 75 or 80 with Sniper) to enable both Akimbo builds that feel consistent (50% cc with lots of bullets) and “gamble” (High Powered, Slow firing Snipers, hit a crit 0 enemy evaporates, fail the crit = you’re in for it now buddy!).

Blademaster should have around 50% because it’s similar to the “many bullets” path of MM, the results end up being consistent and not overpowered.

For the Evoker, I’d sugest a diferent mechanic: crit always procs elemental effects with added intensity. That +800% CDB? Apply to the strength of elemental attacks so I can mod a gun to fire 3 diferent elements and apply them all at once, or to rapidly switch between diferent elements and consitently apply element procs between them.

The best to achieve these would be by tweaking the skill trees, IMHO. For example: the Dual Wielding skill could boost Crit Chance for Focus items and the Concentrate skill could enchance it further or let the CDB apply to elemental strength.

My two cents anyway. I still don’t know the game inside-out like many of you and I’m trying new things everyday but I can’t wait to get me some 50/50 6 chars in each class.
Also please buff MM, I feel sad playing with a summoner buddy who wipes levels alone and I’m going “PEW PEW” in the corner killing maybe half a dozen enemies per zone ;_;

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My personal view is that there won’t be balance between crit and non-crit while you have access to modify both your cc and cdb.

For reducing this gap i would suggest to make strength stat increase all source of damage, not just melee. This change will affect non-crit build more than crit builds because of the nature of how bonus damage works.

There are several other issues which should be discussed:

-Availability of high base crit weapons: This is currently an Evoker perk. Either make other factions access to these type of weapons or remove/nerf it.

-Faction role disparity: Evokers have access to the best aoe skills AND the best crit gear, while Hunters have none of this. The strikes are weak and the cooldown is much higher than any of the evoker skills, and their abyss gear doesn’t even come close in value of evokers. I would suggest to move the critical chance from feral armor set to cybernet set. The drawbacks are also poorly implemented, while i don’t give a shit about going with a bit less power, the lack of run speed can, and will cause you lots of troubles.
By doing this, mm’s would fit in the role of high single target dps while evokers would be better at killing trash.

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With the new set giving evokers loads of crit this poses a heavy exception from the way crit builds are done. MM and BM have skills that increase their crit thus limiting their builds when going the crit route. Evokers get most of their crit by gear and none from skills. They will take it anyways - it is additional damage with no downside.
Also, i think taking out crit from strikes was good, strikes are now ok as they are. AOEs critting is something that doesnt makes sense because in my book crit has to do with precision. BUT now we have evokers with AOEs that crit.
So as i have mentioned before CCM for crit has to go, it is simple math that it is overpowered, 30% basecrit, 40% Multiplier at 1000% critdam that makes 120% more damage for one mod where the normal Caste damage mod gets you 45%.
Then Crit for all AOEs has to go. In a broader sense this means field AOEs, i think i would leave it in for splash damage (thinking of grenades - not sure though).

I’m for leaving it as it is.

My reasons are that 2038 feels new although much of it is very old and it just wouldn’t feel this way if things were like HGG again.

Also, attack strengths need to have a purpose and we shouldn’t turn it into a useless property. Half of the classes would become less useful than they already are to some players. I’v e always been a fan of the idea of making crit builds with BMs, Evos and MMs, while using the others for making attack strength builds.

I also don’t believe that boosting crit would somehow make all the classes equal. It will only lead to players picking not any class, but only a single class to play with - the one with the best crit builds. And in order to get a balance through boosting crit would some classes require quite a few modifications and have crit bonuses added to them, which could alter the game more radically than everybody would find agreeable.

seems to me the answer lies in dissecting Global.

The problem is they went overboard with cabalist base crit. With all pieces of the feral set and 2x coreshredders you only need around 70% ccm to cap. That’s trivial. 2x mods or mod and aug.

Now if we drop the base chance of a coreshredder to 15%, ccm needed jumps to 110. We can place ccm mods back to max 55 and evo can still cap with 2x mods while this immensely improves things for MM as well (cap actually reachable in Sniper for hu with a lucky aug).

Seems easier than overhaul of all MM abyss gear (Which it still needs. Such trash. Much useless. Wow.)

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For a more drastic approach, you should completely remove the CDB from accuracy and give it a ranged weapon damage bonus of 1% per point.

Melee weapon damage scale very well with STR, and doesn’t need crit to be effective. The difference in damage output between crit and non-crit bm-s are minimal. This should work with ranged weapons too.

Providing weapon damage instead of CDB should smooth out the difficulty on early levels as a hunter class for example, and giving more options for endgame builds.

CDB mods, slower weapons would grow in value.

Pure ranged weapon cabbalist and templar build would be viable.

I really, really like that idea. Accuracy -> CDB effectively meant that ranged builds would have to go the crit route or waste all the accuracy that was necessary to equip their weapons. This idea should open up, or at least make it easier to open up, more build paths.

I agree with those who think that the astronomical CDB values are the actual problem here, not the crit chance. Tackle those, and of course the insanity that is Shrapnel & Co, and you’ll have a much saner basis from which to balance the game.

Shrapnels could be balanced by only let it pierce one time and nerf the base damage by around 25%.
I don’t know the exact damage values but i think most of the novas base damage are the same, shrapnels only doing more damage because of the “infinite” pierce they have (they keep piercing the target until the particles lifetime is over), and the ability to phase which means 50% increased damage.

I would also like to see electric nova as an on hit mod, AFAIK it’s now an on kill exclusive.
Also on kill mods should be reworked or removed from the game, basically noone ever using them, it’s just a frustrating factor that keeps popping up instead of an on hit mod, which is pretty rare on it’s own.