Witchdoctor got destroyed!

The title is of couse a bit harsh but i m very upset with the changes.

Nobody rly used the WD because carnagor and warper exist but i made a build wich made him finally usefull.
I played Darkform melee with him as my personal healer. So what is the problem?
He got changed so he heals slower but got an aoe heal. And thats somewhat fine.
But! His heal beams got removed too.
This beams could single target and over heal me wich means he keeped me alive very effectively.
But now his beams are gone AND he needs double the time to heal with an even weaker heal.

I know that the aoe heal is good for party play, especially when you got 3 WDs in your group.
But for healing me when i m not playing a +15 minion build and go myself into combat, he sucks.
I m far better off to use a carnagor now than him.

What he needs is a usefull skillable abillity (dont know if the mindcontroll is ever usefull)
I would be happy if he gets his beams back but as a buff wich you could toggl off on.
But with a change: When toggled on he cant do the aoe heal anymore and he can only heal You.
maybe with an armor buff on top or so idk.
With this the WD would become a lot more usefull and you could choose how to use him.

Anykind of abillity wich keeps the summoner alive when he fights on the front would be nice.
Other then that the Aoe heal is a nice idea but i think carnagor is still the way to go. (unless in a party, 5 WD ftw)

That would be Brom’s Curse and if playing HC you might wanna consider Venom Armor. Make sure to get at least one piece with thorns damage (usually no issue because it is on the TC Belt that comes with 80% minion damage and is therefore meta). Summoner is the one and only class I would describe as almost immortal, while still being geared towards damage.

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Hi, i didnt know that thorns work with broms thats helpful.
I use Venom armor but Dark form melee without elementals is close to immortal?

But thats besides the point. The point is that i wanted to use WD as a healer for me.
Why should i now use WD over the other demons?
WD now is just the even weaker choice as it was before.

You’re not making unfair points here. The WD and its spot in the skillset also interest me greatly, so I’d like to chime in too.

This was the inherent problem of the beams we had to tackle; it clogged with >8 targets in range, making heals unreliable. As such, while other Demons had their roles in various builds (the Carnagor isn’t overshadowed by Forces anymore, and the Warper is a damage ceiling raiser), the WD only really fit into low-minion DF builds.
This by itself might have been fine, but even then the Carnagor was an equally viable, if not superior, option; tanking drew heat away from the player, and healing options were already plentiful. Between Brom’s and Drain Life the WD served the least valuable purpose, even before considering damage mitigation options like Bloodshards and Venom Armor.

So the overall concept was meant to tick a few boxes at once;

  1. allow it to work with >8 targets in range, facilitating high-minion builds and parties,
  2. make healing values per tick more consistent, and
  3. let it serve a unique purpose (AoE healing as opposed to personal/low count healing).

Now, it’s still not ideal, as evidenced by this thread. It doesn’t come with, say, increased shields for parties like Medpak does, and it’s less efficient as a personal healer (in turn pushing to pointsink synergies like max DF+DL/Brom’s). So I absolutely see this point:

It could very well become something along these lines. Perhaps Hand of Nostrum could serve this purpose, providing the choice between AoE and single-target/beam heals. Especially since this is very true:

All that said, I still believe that the AoE heal gives it more utility than before, in the sense that it ticked the above boxes. I think it’s now more compatible with “zoo”-type builds, which seems to be the popular route, as well as parties. But a toggled healing mode can bring a proper compromise for low-minion DF builds, if the current AoE heal and other healing/damage mitigation options don’t suffice.

All in all, thank you. I was expecting a much less reasonable position from the title, but these are fair, constructive points. That’s the kind of feedback we need.

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It was click bait, i m just a bit butthurt because i finally found a nice place for the WD aaaaaand its gone ^^°

I would love that so much. But make it so that the WD then can only heal players not minions otherwise you have the old problem with the beams back.

Dont get me wrong i know why you did that, i tried a lot with the WD to make him work with a build wich makes him a good choice.
I like the change with the Aoe a lot, but i dont like that the beams got removed.

The idea was when you have the WD with the over heal because all beams can heal a single target
plus that he heals constantly (wich also got nerfed by double cast time) you dont need another healing method. That means you just can go in and kill you dont have to cast broms or use drain life, you got a much smoother gameplay.

I would say that carnagor is still #1. The tanks (carnagor/earth ele) is enough and a better protection for the elementals then the slow weak healer as experience shows. The WD is only good in partys and thats flawed like you sayed.

I got an idea as i write. Why dont make it so that when the WD uses his AoE heal, he also buffs all healed with a 10sec buff wich grant elemental-attack-str %.
Not flat but %. So you support all wich invest in ele-str and only them. This would make him unique and useful in a group and as an elemental build.
So you would have Carnagor/tank, warper/dps and WD as heal/ele-str.
And the single target heal beams would be much faster use rate but no ele-str.

The WD could also just get the ele-str as an aura buff like the engie bot.

If you run a very unoptimized setup like this, you can expect poor performance. You have enough skillpoints to get dark form, dark minions and some elementals like force to help you survive. Since WD has AoE healing now, you can run as many minions as you wish. If all incoming damage is split up across you and some elementals, the WD can actually keep you alive. More elementals also mean more Broms Curse procs. I can assume running only WD means you have a bunch of skillpoints left for force elementals (best tank elementals), toxic (best dps but sfx is useless) and fire (2nd best dps and ignite can be very helpful with tanky enemies). Why would the game that is supposed to be somewhat difficult be balanced around dark form + no elementals + WD, who also does no type of damage? There is imo no point in running WD in solo play, because survivability is high with elementals, dark minions and a regular minion. Elementals can be resummoned in an instant, making it questionable to invest into a means to heal them, while dark minions are constantly being resummoned if you have thorns. Regular minions such as carnagor and warper are super tanky anyways. WD is imo more a group focused minion because it scales infinitively with targets to heal.

I admit after reading that, i rly wanted to stop reading.
As you mentioned “Meta” i already know that you would be “this guy”.

So i will make it quick. This thread was to discuss about the WD changes and why i find him even weaker now through my experience and tests. To give feedback about the WD changes. My take on it, removing the beams(and cast time to it) was a mistake.

It was not made so that someone comes in and say: “Play meta; play what i play; you are bad when you dont play X”.

So in other words: You still missed the point.

If you would read what i sayed in the posts above you would understand what build i did and why i choose WD over other demons.
Melee summoner without elementals is a normal known “legit” build and nobody sayed anything about bad performance to the build.

What i take from your posts is that you have no experience with WD neither after nor before the patch
and therefore this thread might be not for you.

Nevertheless thank you for the interest and that you tried to help.

You have skillpoints for elementals that can keep some damage away from you but decide to play without them therefore increasing the incoming damage you receive. I never said it wasn’t true that the original healing beam could grant more healing to a fixed number of targets, but since summoner is designed to be played with minions (and other players for that matter), the change to make WD scale infinitely with targets to heal is a good one. Most playstyles will benefit from this. If you cannot stay alive with broms curse, venom armor and the current WD iteration, your build is simply bad in every common sense and it is not Omerta’s duty to make every suboptimal build playable. I already told you the solution to your problem that involves getting a few elemental (e.g. force). This has nothing to do with meta playstyle. I have been playing melee summoner way before the very first summoner buff hit. Your problem literally involves facetanking mobs and expecting the damage to be outhealed by the WD with neither broms nor venom armor? And by the way, you already admitted that you didn’t know that thorn work with broms curse so please get down from your high horse, you don’t know shit.

Now now, let’s remain civil. Some good points are made on both sides, so this can be constructive.

As a note that’s completely detached from the arguments of either of you, DF does indeed have some trouble fitting into the skillset. It provides costless onhit minions that overlap with Elementals, and its melee playstyle can be somewhat supported by Brom’s, DL, and now Bloodshards and VA. All that aside though, it provides a melee playstyle that the class struggles to really steer towards - in part because the addition was hasty, and thus not properly framed.
I believe a toggled healing mode would be an ideal compromise, having the WD fit both high-minion and low-minion builds while still having caveats (ie range, pointsinks towards toggle/heal frequency, low Shadow counts), that would also let DF feel more connected to the skillset. I can’t promise it will happen soon or at all, but it’s certainly something I’ve noted down.

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I have nothing against a toggle mechanic or a new skill that lets your WD focus towards single target healing, but this should by no means being prioritized considering the current state of the game. Once we get to real class balancing we can get back to this.

Agreed, that’s why I didn’t want to overpromise on it. It’s a neat idea, but the table’s quite full as it is so it may take a while.

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As i sayed.

I never sayed i couldnt stay alive or that i wouldnt use venom armor:

Nobody sayed that, it is simply feedback and i think this should be allowed.

That is again an assumption. Before the patch i could facetank with only the WD now i need carnagor/broms.

It was once again feedback and nothing more.

Of course not, it is nowher stated that it does. Broms says that you get the heal when you attack.
Thorns arent an attack and tbh it sounds busted and shouldnt be in the game but thats just my opinion.

Thank you for proofing my point.

Gonna chime in here, as i am also a more “non-meta” guy and am playing a melee sumo. I am using a few eles though.

In my setup the new WD aoe works pretty good, as i had more than 8 minions and when i formerly was losing health it was like gambling. Does the heal come or doesnt it? Now it seems more reliable. I noticed though that it is less effective which i have to investigate further.
But to be honest survival is not that much of a problem and there are further options like venom armor and broms.

Now i am also planning on a no ele variant with swarm (though i probably cant resist on the spectral ele- phase is too good to have). I also dont think they hold up alot of the damage because you are in the middle of everything anyways and even without elese you have alot of darkminions. I rather have them to justify my heavy minion damage investment and get some shooters and additional damage that i cant get elsewhere in the tree. I think it will depend on how swarm works with the sumo.
I also found Broms not as super effective for melee pre patch (the thorns tip is pretty neat though) but with eledrain synergies i might even take it up just for that.

But you have a alot of ways to skill even with no eles, so i wouldnt say it is kindof a gimped build. Full Darkform, no eles should be a thing - doesnt have to be meta though. I assume there will be dmg issues more than survival issues.

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I played a summoner with swarm too, but i took a different approche.
I didnt build for crit, i build for ele-str.

The idea: Carnagor pulls everything together and swarm + toxic elementals + life drain will poison and ignite everything. So i heavily invested in ignite + poison str. aswell in ele-str % from the invoker(?) gear.

The ele drain and fire elemental buffs are pretty good aswell.

This is where the idea comes from to give the WD like the haste bot an aura that gives ele-str %.

skimmed through the thread. yeah, i guess i’m not playing Darkform, and it was the reason i installed the game. locked skills were pretty bad, but the Witch Doctor rework probably made it worse. seen how it works without trying it myself, got an impression i would’ve already been dead if it was my HGG Zombie Form summoner running Stonehenge. back then i actually had to limit the amount of elementals because i noticed i wasn’t getting healed quickly enough sometimes, but i was also putting points in Brom’s and Venom Armor, so the points weren’t lying unused.

Honestly, I’d suggest giving it a go. DF Summoners are perfectly viable even before/without the suggested heal mode toggle, and actually have proper builds now; you can use VA for armor and Swarm for AoE/poison, and/or max Offering for sfx, and/or max Ele Drain for Brom’s synergy, all while having up to 9 Shadows and as many Elementals as your power pool affords. The WD will sustain them all much better, while the other 2 are also viable Demon options.
Bloodshards also provide armor, apart from the now-usable VA, and there are +attack speed options to lessen the need for massive ACC. Keeping in mind that Brom’s still scales off max hp (while there’s now a reason to max DF outside of its 45% hpb) and that the WD ticks for flat 500 heals at a time, there’s really no survivability issue.

I can fully understand the objection to personal WD heals the thread outlines, by all means. That’s why I’ve agreed a toggled heal mode is probably the ideal middle ground. But the class on the whole is still fully serviceable and has many build options it didn’t have before.

Swarm for AoE/poison

mmmmmaybe, maybe. i’ll have to reach it’s level requirement first, i’m not even there. and that’s just to speed up levelling to start farming skill unlocks. ugh. no.

i just wanted to slap demons!